DavidNJ

The Recaro in the video is the only 8862-2010 certified seat with slider. They need to be tested together to be certified.

This is all very complex and nuanced, with minimal feedback and lots of negative peer pressure.

In the Spec Miata forum, there was a discussion about whether the rear braces should go to the shock towers or further back. The argument for further back is that they could limit the crash damage. The other argument is that Mazda was designed to absorb energy in a crash and that extended rear braces would defeat that. I chimed in, with videos, that there were was no passenger car safety spec for rear crush zones; there are tests for front and side impacts. Also, the non-triangulated rear braces would just fold anyway in a hard enough crash, actually increasing energy absorption.

The moral: there are relatively few accidents with injuries and often the people involved don't return and their stories aren't publicized. For instance, do you know how many fatalities there have been in HPDE events and what caused the injuries? Or non-fatal injuries? Or how many cars were destroyed beyond repair? As the Spec Miata thread I linked earlier showed (an SE30 is the same), many seemingly modest crashes become reasons to throw away the chassis with its cage and build a new one.

This is relevant because we don't have any objective way to evaluate the correct amount of safety equipment. The details of the accidents are virtually never publicized. The extent of injuries more so. Often the people involved just don't return.

The HPDE/TT/S2k Challenge/etc. cars are driven at full racing speeds on real race tracks, often with more power than allowed in many wheel-to-wheel racing classes. All the real w-2-2 classes require cages with door bars, window nets or arm restraints, 5-, 6-, or 7-point harnesses (my preference would be for a Schroth hybrid 9-point with 2" lap belts), and some form of racing seat. None of the US amateur seem to require containment seats.

That said, a HANS device prevents basal skull fractures in frontal or slight offset accidents. The head rest cushions rear impacts. An S2000 has nothing on a race track equivalent to the side curtain airbags required in cars since 2012 unless they have a containment seat where the head and shoulder supports are adequately stiff and the seat correctly mounted.

Chibo

I'm crossing over from years of motorcycle racing / trackdays and it is actually refreshing to see these kinds of discussions happening. From what I've noticed, safety seems to be a somewhat taboo subject in the car trackday circles, at least from the fringes that I've so-far been involved in. On the motorcycle end, it is hammered in on an every-day basis and a lot of us have still paid a very steep price for making a simple mistake. Actually, it's why I've made the switch (two concussion in three years).

Bullwings

The last local fatalities that i know of:

Chuckwalla Valley Raceway - 2013. Improper use of 4-point harness in an ITR. passenger ended up in the foot well...

Buttonwillow raceway park - Dec 2015. E46m3 - full cage. No HNR - driver hit wall going backwards at an angle - quarter panel/bumper impact

Las Vegas 2017 - Fantasy driving experience - lambo hit solid object at very high rate of speed and blew up (think Paul Walker style in the Carrera GT) - at least 3 different piles of separated rubble. Safety equipment likely would not have helped.

I've seen a lot of modern totaled cars with the occupants being fine with the OEM equipment. Friend totaled an Evo X, went off track at ~90mph and hit a dirt wall.

BRZ went off at T9 at WSIR (the "widow maker") and rolled the car several times. Walked away with just the OEM safety.

Sometimes it's luck, but modern cars are quite a bit safer than pre-2005 vehicles

DavidNJ

You are making the point: information is anecdotal. And even there you have little information that could be used to avoid a similar fate. For example, in the Buttowillow crash that killed the instructor and severely injured the passenger, what was the cause of death? Blunt force trauma? Why do you think the HNR (these days called a FHR) was a factor? Did the car have racing harnesses?

The EVO might have been going 90mph when it lost control, but how fast was it going when it impacted?

Yes...newer cars are safer. But they still aren't designed to have passenger safety in 100mph wrecks. With all the driving schools, private racing series, HPDE events, private motorsports parks, etc, how many accidents and their aftermath are we really aware of?

This driver broker her leg at Roebling Road when her Spec E30 (cage, racing harness, racing seat) was in a wreck that brought the bumper back to the front suspension. How would an S2000 have fared?

freq

Good question, how old was that Spec E30 and the tech behind it's crumple zones and frame?

David, you know that driver? She's OK with you posting this even w/o her name? I do know her and know she probably wouldn't mind but I had to ask.

DavidNJ

It's a public access Facebook picture.

freq

OK, fair enough.

You still wanna compare a car designed in 1982 to a car designed 1999?

DavidNJ

All of these accidents have the speed heavily reduced by impact. Comparing the E30 to crash test results indicates that car had the equivalent of maybe a 25mph-30mph barrier impact. Note that the 3 largest classes in US racing—Spec Racer Ford, Spec Miata, and Spec E30—all have chassis designed in the 1980s.


SCCA and NASA seem to be still in the 1960s when it comes to roll cages. In the Spec and Touring classes they seem more concerned that the cage doesn't stiffen the chassis for performance reasons and that OEM door latches and side beams remain intact then driver safety is optimized.

This is a 120mph barrier impact demonstration conducted by a British magazine:

t-o_double_d

I'm just fine.. neck was a little sore for 2 days... car still needs to get to a shop with a frame machine to check everything out... the only thing i can tell for sure is the radiator support gut pushed back on the passenger side

duffman13

I'll add on to this one with one I watched happen personally:

2.5 years ago, last gen STI off the back straight at VIR into the woods. Driver missed a red flag drill and dodged a stopped car at/near triple digit speeds. Driver and instructor were OK, but the car was toast. OEM safety equipment. With the age of the car at that point, I'd wager he was still making payments too.

Top Gear did something similar with a new Focus (IIRC) on a winch into a brick wall at 100mph a few years ago. The fact of the matter is there is very little that any safety system will do for you at triple digit speeds into a solid object. That energy has to go somewhere.