[QUOTE]Originally posted by derryck
[B]I don't think anyone said or implied that it was an apples to apples comparison... I certainly didn't.

 

I have a friend with a 2003 Rousch (sp?) and I eat his car alive in addition to which he paid $20K more than an 03 Cobra. Why are you arguing how great the S2000 is with me? I love the S2000 but let's face it... improved power wouldn't piss anyone off. The car is lethargic in the lower RPM's thats why I turbocharged mine... so no need to argue FI on the S2000 with me. Mine was putting down about 400 RWHP and it was an absolute blast. I have never really cared for Ford either but the 03 Cobra has tons of power and despite it's shortcomings there is no denying the raw power.

 

derryck,
Really! I assumed the Jack Rousch version was faster. My mistake I am not arguing, just stating my opinions. We both do agree the Cobra has POWER, and lots of it. I am very brand loyal (I'm on my 6th now) and Honda :knock on wood: has never let me down. Enjoy your Cobra, I'm sure it's fun too.

 

Okay, where do I start here...

1. Honda is currently the only manufacturer that has a production unit that does what it does. Anyone can talk about being able to make anything but it takes a really good engineering team to producing something like the F20C marketed for people to buy as a production model.

2. Your comment regarding the RX8 isn't relevant to anything. They are quite different in their mechanics to compare "fairly" with the subject regarding "displacement." I've owned the 1st and 2nd gen RX7's and they have some strengths and weakness unique to their design compared to normal piston driven counterparts. BTW, Mazda accomplished a lot with the Renesis engine being able to put down that much un-boosted power with much improved fuel economy with the new exhaust port arrangement.

3. Domestic 4 bangers have yet to gain any real respect on the street if you leave "boosting" out of the picture. Let's see here, is there any domestic unboosted stock 4 banger worth mentioning?

4. Your comment regarding Japanese cars needing to boost their supercars may have a point regarding their inability/inexperience (whichever) to produce a solid high-powered N/A big displacement engine. (basically the reverse of what I was saying about domestic automakers not being able to make high power 4 bangers...) This is in regards to a production unit.

5. My comment which stated that Ford wasn't content with the power of the all motor version of a production Cobra is true. I didn't make this up, the actual test drivers and a Ford Engineer (I think appeared on Motorweek... can't recall the show) said that although the Cobra was a product they were proud of, they felt that the power output was a bit weak and not quite up to par, therefore they turned to supercharging and then the real fun started. I drove both the Super and non-supercharged Cobras and it's like comparing water and beer. The success of the Lightning is awesome and Ford obviously learned what people seem to want when performance comes to mind. They applied the same ingredients that worked for the Lightning and applied it to the Cobra... IMO, good move.

6. Do I really have one of the easiest cars to modify that was ever built? Pardon me but you're gonna get slammed on this one, because you can't imagine how wrong you are. The F20C engine in the current time is not easily modified. Most "ricer-inspired" mods won't work well, (I/E/H) the only real big mod you can do is boosting but I believe that R&D for the S2k's engine is in its infancy, kind of like when people used to say not to get the VTEC Integras because the engine was maxed out from the factory so some blindly went out and got the non-VTEC Integra only to find after a couple of years that really nice improvements can be made with not too much money that will take it beyond the non-VTEC models. There are more Integra/Civics around than S2000's, perhaps that is delaying performance products. On a VW 1.8T, I can buy mods that will add quite a bit more power at a lower price than I would with the S2000 paying the same amount.

7. I am proud of the S2k's engine, sure I will hit a wall after a while but you will to. You think that your awesome Ford engine has some kind of infinite power potential or something? A smaller engine will hit the "wall" sooner than a larger displacement engine, that's just common sense, so I have absolutely no clue what you are trying prove here.

8. I wish I could bring any car I want to you... if there was a way to bring the 3rd place winner of the 1997 Tsukuba Drag Racing event to you, that "slow" BNR32 Skyline turned a best time of 9.29 at the 1/4 mile. They did this with roughly 900hp... 200hp less than the 2nd place finisher. No nitrous was used, all boost, 4WD and 2.7L of displacement (overbored I think .1L above stock). It would kick that 10 sec car of yours from start to finish. Don't even get me started on the other 2 cars, and yes the owners drive them on the street to and from work (once shown to pickup the wife at her workplace) as shown in one of the Option Videos.

9. Don't come saying what? That a stock S2k wasn't meant to drag race? It wasn't. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying to themselves and watching too much Fast and the Furious re-runs. The stock drivetrain with the kind of motor and gearing it has won't stand up to the torture of launching from a stop for very long. Sure it can turn out a few descent times for an unboosted 2.0L 4 banger but that's not what it was meant to do. It was designed to be a very nimble car, ideally driven on the track similar to Solo 1 and 2 style racing with the main focus of having fun, involving lots of corners. Sure some s/c it and can go really fast but as some already learned, the rear-end can take a beating when cranking the power over 100whp above normal. Turbo peeps pump out more and put that much more stress on the stock drivetrain.

10. A supercharged V8 is supposed to make some serious power, at least that's how I feel unless I am missing something really important here. So how does that impress me? It doesn't. An N/A 1.3L 3 cylinder engine making (for example) 150hp getting 25mpg does. When all the big motorheads drive by bragging "whoa, I can go real fast in my supercharged V8 than your crappy S2k" makes me think "no shit sherlock, what did you expect, to get your ass handed to you by a N/A 4 banger on the straights?" I'm not impressed by the obvious, that's all. For you that keep bringing up the torque issue with the S2k, just FYI, a high power N/A 4 banger engine gets its power by revving the sucker up, that's how you do it because it lacks 4 additional pistons versus a V8 and almost 3 more liters of displacement not having positive intake pressure. You can't expect to drive the S2k that way you do a Corvette. Just like Toyota's 4AGE, 3S, 2ZZ, Honda's B16A, etc., you rev it up, that's how it's done. If I'm talking Greek, look at how an F-1 car runs. That's similar to the mentality and the requirements you need to drive the S2k. If you rev it up, it will go (not like a supercharged V8 though). If you want more low-end power, then you need more displacement... once again, common sense. Don't expect a lot of torque at low revs on the S2k and I won't expect a Ford V8 to spin to (or survive at) 9000rpms.

 

I would have as well... especially for the money. It's rated at less hp... and is basically a modified GT so you lose the six speed tranny and the wonderful built motor the Cobra offers. My friend traded in a 2001 Navigator on his 2003 Rousch and he loves it... I have to admit that I really like the side pipes. I'm pretty much a Honda loyalist as well but I'm more of sports car enthusiast than I am a Honda loyalist. I have owned a ton of Acuras/Hondas including the S2000 (w/ turbo), NSX (w/ supercharger) and many modded Civics, Preludes and Integras. I have a 89 CRX Si with less than 70K miles on that I am the original owner... the CRX is one of the greatest cars ever built IMO. I haven't been a big Ford fan over the years but after driving the 03 I just had to have it. I like cars that handle like the S2 as well but I get to enjoy the straight line power of the Cobra alot more than I got enjoy the twisties in the S2. I haven't had any problems with the Cobra as of yet and chances are that it will get traded in at some point this year and will hopefully still be trouble free at that point.

Hyper-X,
There is no magic ingredient to making ANY CAR go fast...all it takes is money. If you have enough then you can go as fast as you want. The F20C is no different than any other car for that matter. I was told by many that I wouldn't be able to successfully turbocharge the S2000...well they were wrong. If you have the money and the know how or access to someone that does then it's that easy. If you're implying that because the F20C is in it's 'infancy' that it will eventually be easier to get gains from it then you're wrong. Almost any factory blown car (ie. 2003 Cobra or the 1.8t you mentioned) is easy to extract additional power from. The F20C is a great motor... you'll get no argument from me there. IMO, however, the current E46 M3 is very close to the S2000 in terms of technology and what it offers. Sure it's a bigger heavier car but it does EVERYTHING extremely well. The only reason I sold my M3 was because any significant power gains were just outrageously expensive.

 

No argument there derryck regarding the cost factor. If you have the money, you can make anything fast. The "infancy" problem that I was referring to was the R&D behind making aftermarket parts for the S2000. There are without a doubt a few really nice parts out there but the normal equation involving the typical (i/e/h) parts doesn't result in any big improvement (at least that's what I've been finding out by searching).

Could it be that the factory tuned performance of the F20C is really that good? To be completely honest, I don't know since I'm no engineer but from what I've read from a certain webpage which compared the airflow characteristics of the F20C, H22A and B16A, it seems that the F20C can flow quite a bit more (the tech featured in that article used a Superflow bench). I recall the statements made by a lot of people regarding the VTEC equipped Integras that they are already maxxed out and cannot benefit from the typical bolt-on mods... that was proven untrue years later.

The current M3's seem awesome, as I got to ride shotgun during a fun lap session during Solo 2 and it handles good, sounds nice and has such strong brakes. The only problem being the cost to own one is too rich for my blood. The Cobra at the current MSRP offers a very good value with the power to cost ratio. Most daily driving is made up of a lot of straights so its easy to have fun in such a car.

 

I think Honda did a fantastic job of tuning the S2000. I ran 13.7-13.8 in my S2000 when it was bone stock and the dyno had already shown me to lose power with the airbox cover off. The power gains normally achieved through bolt-ons just really aren't there on the S2000... at least not when compared the gains yielded on most other cars with the same bolt-ons. That's exactly the reason I went the turbo route with my S2000... it was simply awesome after that.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hyper-X
[B]

Okay, where do I start here...

1.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hyper-X
[B]

3.

 

I remember in stock trim, I think the Cutlass Calais or something has the Quad 4 option but it didn't feel too impressive at the time.
Well, that was my limited experience regarding the Quad, never tried out the H.O. version ever. The problem was that I didn't know anyone who ever had one, you know how it is, a lot more Honda Civics, Preludes and Integras roamed the streets more than any other car on the street.

I also recall Olds making a car called the Aerotech or some sort driven by that same exact engine that's supposed to be something quite awesome at the time.

In that same timeframe, Honda started out with their first VTEC motors on their GSR's, although a bit underpowered it rocked the whole enthusiast community with it's high revving motor.