Maybe this is a simplistic approach to this topic but until cars make it from Point A to Point B on dynos, wheel weight and all other moving parts should be taken into consideration before going away from this thread believing the '04 is 25+hp at peak quicker on the street than the older models.
If any magazine does an actual test of performance between the two cars on the same day in the same conditions (and even then, it's just two cars out of thousands) , I guarantee the next thread will be "Gee, you'd expect the '04 to much quicker if its engine is supposed to be 25+hp at peak stronger...what happened?"
Whatever is found out to be true, dyno dueling (to me) makes about as much sense as magazine racing.
FWIW, always appreciate your insight UL.

 

Nope, you can't squirm out of this one You didn't say where in 3rd vs. 4th, you have to conceed that point. Oh yeah, what's your favorite toad?

As for the highest specific torque output, I'm not that surprised. We can see gains in peak torque of up to 4-5 lbs-ft just from tuning fuel with a VAFC up to the ratios that the 04 is using. That cuts the difference down to an even 10% Given that various cars do vary a couple percent, its within reason. If you believe that the old car was making 153 lbs-ft, this means that the new car is making about 174 lbs-ft (losses do not scale linearly with output). 174 lbs-ft/2.157 = 80.67 lbs-ft/liter which is right on par with something like the e46 M3.

Since the engine has a smaller rev range to work with, you can focus on bringing up the peak torque a bit. Additionally, the dynamics of a longer stroke and shorter rod ratio can change peak torque output as well. Especially since the intake manifold and throttle body appear unchanged. That would make for more intake velocity/charge momentum (as a general theory, in reality, who knows?).

But don't worry, more tests are coming, and not just customer cars. We've got a couple other tests in mind.

UL

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Luis

 

Russ, I even said myself that the 04 didn't feel that much faster. Then I ran the dyno numbers through some rough simulations and realized that it really shouldn't be _that_ much faster. Over any given acceleration interval that spans more than a gear it'll be about 1/10th of a second per 10 mph interval faster (assuming it doesn't get caught in the wrong gear)

26 hp at peak is great, but as others have pointed out, there is _no_ overrev. And making peak power right on the cusp of a hard limiter is not as useful as making it 500 rpm sooner.

UL

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Luis

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Russ
Maybe this is a simplistic approach to this topic but until cars make it from Point A to Point B on dynos, wheel weight and all other moving parts should be taken into consideration before going away from this thread believing the '04 is 25+hp at peak quicker on the street than the older models.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Road Rage

 

We did perform some impromptu roll on testing from below the VTEC point through a couple of gears ( I think we started at 30 mph in 2nd gear) and the 04 pulled so much before VTEC that by the time it shifted to 3rd it had enough speed advantage that all the older car could do was slow down or stop the rate at which the gap was increasing. It couldn't actually gain any ground back. We also did tests starting below VTEC in 3rd at about 45 mph. Even when the older model got a noticeable jump at the start (as will happen in such comparisons, its almost impossible to start evenly) the 04 would erase the gap opened by the jumped start and begin pulling away within a very short time period.

Hey UL, can you elaborate on that. I would love to know how much did the '04 pull aways from the '02? ie. How many carlengths (roughly) did the '04 pull when starting in 2nd at 30mph and then what about when starting in 3rd at 45mph?

I'm wondering if we are talking about couple feet or actually car-length/s? Thanks UL ... shame you did not tape any of it as it would answer a lot of questions here.

 

About a car length per gear with the gap widening as speeds climbed. If we started well below VTEC, a little more. Call it "walking away" to use street racer parlance. A slow walk, but inevitable. Even at high speeds in 6th gear (which is noticeably taller in the 04), the early model could not make up any ground in roll-ons.

I'm going to take the 04 and my car out for some interval testing tomorrow in various gears. That will also be part of the article at vtec.net

UL

 

Would an S2000 with 4.77's have any kind of a chance against an '04?

 

with all the heated debate over MY04 vs. MY00-03, no one has questioned why we don't have a job like you UL? i'd love to do real world testing of automobiles and post write-ups on vtec.net

happy testing tomorrow!