All the lawyers out there, help.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 238
Likes: 0
From: Hollywood
Guys, thanks for all the advice.
I have a day off tomorrow, so I will spend it following all this up.
I will go to Honda, and at the same time call my lawyer.
I will definitely keep everyone updated on this one.
I am almost curious to see what Honda will say.
I have a day off tomorrow, so I will spend it following all this up.
I will go to Honda, and at the same time call my lawyer.
I will definitely keep everyone updated on this one.
I am almost curious to see what Honda will say.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 407
Likes: 0
From: Pleasanton
My fix would be:
1) Call Honda customer service, explain your situation, and ask them for a recommendation. See if they will call the district attorney WITH you.
2) Notify the court that you will contest by mail, and you are pleading not-guilty. CC the person you talked to at Honda, as well as your attorney. Contesting by mail will do several things:
a) You won't have to take time off work, etc. to deal with it.
b) you will have a paper trail, and if you are required to pay, you forward the correspondence to Honda for reimbursement.
c) you can copy the local press on all your documents (television highly recommended! They love this stuff!)
d) the cop's supervisor is likely to be copied on the correspondence
e) you can CC your attorney and your senator. CCing your attorney shows the court that you are serious and you have legal backing for your claim. CCing your senator is mostly just for fun, but could actually garner results in a case this absurd.
(You probably don't actually want your attorney involved in a $50 ticket, since it will cost more than $50 just for his advice, but copying him/her costs nothing, and CC to a law firm at the bottom of a letter gets people's attention. In fact, you don't really have to copy them at all, just add the CC at the bottom of all correspondence.)
3) If you have to pay a fine. Make Honda reimburse you.
When you write your letters, you should be concise and professional. If you say things like "the stupid cop", you will lose, and you will not get reimbursed.
You also want to keep things short so that people will read it. Nobody will read a two page essay on why this is absurd. They WILL however read two short paragraphs. Base your conclusion on documented facts if you can.
If you want some facts to quote, try this:
Spot lamps are permitted, no restriction on color, just height. You pass this statute:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index....->Section%20233
Description of high beams:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index....->Section%20237
This one is questionable because of the blue light thing:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index....>Section%202397
IF you were fined for violation of 316.2397 then you should simply explain that the intent of 316.2397 is to prevent confusion between law enforcement vehicles and civilian vehicles. Since the lights on your car clearly produce a white light (perhaps provide specs from Honda...) that could not possibly be construed as a blue light and therefore would never be confused with a law enforcement vehicle.
Outside of the blue light thing, I can find nothing in your statutes that would apply to an S2000 or HID lights. In fact, the statutes only discuss a MINIMUM brightness, not maximum. Lights that are brighter than normal are perfectly legal in Florida as far as I can tell.
Which statute did he write on the ticket?
1) Call Honda customer service, explain your situation, and ask them for a recommendation. See if they will call the district attorney WITH you.
2) Notify the court that you will contest by mail, and you are pleading not-guilty. CC the person you talked to at Honda, as well as your attorney. Contesting by mail will do several things:
a) You won't have to take time off work, etc. to deal with it.
b) you will have a paper trail, and if you are required to pay, you forward the correspondence to Honda for reimbursement.
c) you can copy the local press on all your documents (television highly recommended! They love this stuff!)
d) the cop's supervisor is likely to be copied on the correspondence
e) you can CC your attorney and your senator. CCing your attorney shows the court that you are serious and you have legal backing for your claim. CCing your senator is mostly just for fun, but could actually garner results in a case this absurd.
(You probably don't actually want your attorney involved in a $50 ticket, since it will cost more than $50 just for his advice, but copying him/her costs nothing, and CC to a law firm at the bottom of a letter gets people's attention. In fact, you don't really have to copy them at all, just add the CC at the bottom of all correspondence.)
3) If you have to pay a fine. Make Honda reimburse you.
When you write your letters, you should be concise and professional. If you say things like "the stupid cop", you will lose, and you will not get reimbursed.
You also want to keep things short so that people will read it. Nobody will read a two page essay on why this is absurd. They WILL however read two short paragraphs. Base your conclusion on documented facts if you can.
If you want some facts to quote, try this:
Spot lamps are permitted, no restriction on color, just height. You pass this statute:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index....->Section%20233
Description of high beams:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index....->Section%20237
This one is questionable because of the blue light thing:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index....>Section%202397
IF you were fined for violation of 316.2397 then you should simply explain that the intent of 316.2397 is to prevent confusion between law enforcement vehicles and civilian vehicles. Since the lights on your car clearly produce a white light (perhaps provide specs from Honda...) that could not possibly be construed as a blue light and therefore would never be confused with a law enforcement vehicle.
Outside of the blue light thing, I can find nothing in your statutes that would apply to an S2000 or HID lights. In fact, the statutes only discuss a MINIMUM brightness, not maximum. Lights that are brighter than normal are perfectly legal in Florida as far as I can tell.
Which statute did he write on the ticket?
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,307
Likes: 2
From: Austin
Just watch: I'll bet the cop doesn't show up to court that day and the ticket is thrown out without any discussion. That would just figure, eh? Then I'd sue for harassment... just goes to show that an intelligence test isn't necessarily part of police academy training!
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 865
Likes: 0
From: Ex-pat f/Melbourne, Au. Now in
About 5 years ago back in Australia (melbourne to be exact), VICROADS (dept of transportation) released a new size of license plate. It was much smaller than the stock size. It was legal to order 2 - one for the front and one for the back. I did just that.
I received the plates, put them on my brand new Miata. A few days later, I was driving with a friend along a well known street in Melbourne (Chapel Street) in reasonably heavy traffic. I had the roof off on this particularly fine sunny day.
All of a sudden, this young cop with a severe attitude problem pulls up next to me and starts questioning me about my plates. "Where did you get them from?", he says. Knowing that they were brand new plates and that maybe he didn't know much about them, I said confidently "Vicroads - I ordered them". "Yeah, well you are not allowed to have the small plate on the back of your car, only the front" he says. I said "What? I ordered both these plates legally from Vicroads, I am ALLOWED to place both small plates at either end of my car. They are produced by Vicroads as legal license plates". So he goes..." Yeah, well, I've got your license number so if I find out that these are illegal, I'm going to send you a ticket".
I laughed at him, knowing that there was NOTHING he could do about the fact that he just made a complete ass of himself. He then sped off as the traffic had cleared. He was obviously pissed at me, and maybe jealous that I had a nice car. He wanted to ruin my day.
We saw him again, driving slowly the other way later that day. I looked at him and smiled again. He was glaring at me. Oh joy!
I never did hear from him ever again!
Stupid cops! I think that donut dough must have gone to his head that day!
Fight the ticket man! Involve Honda too! Good luck!
I received the plates, put them on my brand new Miata. A few days later, I was driving with a friend along a well known street in Melbourne (Chapel Street) in reasonably heavy traffic. I had the roof off on this particularly fine sunny day.
All of a sudden, this young cop with a severe attitude problem pulls up next to me and starts questioning me about my plates. "Where did you get them from?", he says. Knowing that they were brand new plates and that maybe he didn't know much about them, I said confidently "Vicroads - I ordered them". "Yeah, well you are not allowed to have the small plate on the back of your car, only the front" he says. I said "What? I ordered both these plates legally from Vicroads, I am ALLOWED to place both small plates at either end of my car. They are produced by Vicroads as legal license plates". So he goes..." Yeah, well, I've got your license number so if I find out that these are illegal, I'm going to send you a ticket".
I laughed at him, knowing that there was NOTHING he could do about the fact that he just made a complete ass of himself. He then sped off as the traffic had cleared. He was obviously pissed at me, and maybe jealous that I had a nice car. He wanted to ruin my day.
We saw him again, driving slowly the other way later that day. I looked at him and smiled again. He was glaring at me. Oh joy!
I never did hear from him ever again!
Stupid cops! I think that donut dough must have gone to his head that day!
Fight the ticket man! Involve Honda too! Good luck!
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,371
Likes: 0
From: newport beach
This is outside my area of practice, but it seems to me that the Federal Interstate Commerce statutory scheme and Federal Department of Transportation regulations preempt state law on the subject - and that state law to the extent it can be read to contradict these federal statutes and regulations would have to be interpreted in such a way as to harmonize them with the federal scheme.
Fla. M.V.C. states:
316.220 Headlamps on motor vehicles.--
(1) Every motor vehicle shall be equipped with at least two headlamps with at least one on each side of the front of the motor vehicle, which headlamps shall comply with the requirements and limitations set forth in this chapter, and shall show a white light. An object, material, or covering that alters the headlamp's light color may not be placed, displayed, installed, affixed, or applied over a headlamp.
(2) Every headlamp upon every motor vehicle shall be located at a height of not more than 54 inches nor less than 24 inches to be measured as set forth in s. 316.217.
Of course down south some folks are still fighting the civil war and for them the DOT regs would not be persuasive authority.
So the issue appears to be whether HID headlights "show a white light." If they're DOT approved that should end the matter. I suppose the Florida law is somewhat ambiguous, in that if they're going to get this picky about enforcement they should define "white light" by temp or range in angstroms.
2x6
Fla. M.V.C. states:
316.220 Headlamps on motor vehicles.--
(1) Every motor vehicle shall be equipped with at least two headlamps with at least one on each side of the front of the motor vehicle, which headlamps shall comply with the requirements and limitations set forth in this chapter, and shall show a white light. An object, material, or covering that alters the headlamp's light color may not be placed, displayed, installed, affixed, or applied over a headlamp.
(2) Every headlamp upon every motor vehicle shall be located at a height of not more than 54 inches nor less than 24 inches to be measured as set forth in s. 316.217.
Of course down south some folks are still fighting the civil war and for them the DOT regs would not be persuasive authority.
So the issue appears to be whether HID headlights "show a white light." If they're DOT approved that should end the matter. I suppose the Florida law is somewhat ambiguous, in that if they're going to get this picky about enforcement they should define "white light" by temp or range in angstroms.
2x6
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 211
Likes: 0
This is also outside my area of expertise. I'm a deal lawyer. I did however ask a colleague who spends his days dealing with DOT regs. 2X6spds has it exactly right. Federal DOT law trumps Florida law here. Fight the ticket. Its ridiculous.
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,371
Likes: 0
From: newport beach
A little more wandering through the Florida Motor Vehicle Code turns up this nugget:
316.2397 Certain lights prohibited; exceptions.--
(1) No person shall drive or move or cause to be moved any vehicle or equipment upon any highway within this state with any lamp or device thereon showing or displaying a red or blue light visible from directly in front thereof except for certain vehicles hereinafter provided.
(2) It is expressly prohibited for any vehicle or equipment, except police vehicles, to show or display blue lights. However, vehicles owned, operated, or leased by the Department of Corrections may show or display blue lights when responding to emergencies.
I suppose your friend in uniform thought that your beautiful HID lights with their slightly radioactive bluish purple hue poached on his blue lit turf. Some folks.
Anyway, I don't think it is reasonable to interpret the Fla.M.V.C. as deeming DOT approved HIDs to be "blue lights."
2x6spds
2x6
316.2397 Certain lights prohibited; exceptions.--
(1) No person shall drive or move or cause to be moved any vehicle or equipment upon any highway within this state with any lamp or device thereon showing or displaying a red or blue light visible from directly in front thereof except for certain vehicles hereinafter provided.
(2) It is expressly prohibited for any vehicle or equipment, except police vehicles, to show or display blue lights. However, vehicles owned, operated, or leased by the Department of Corrections may show or display blue lights when responding to emergencies.
I suppose your friend in uniform thought that your beautiful HID lights with their slightly radioactive bluish purple hue poached on his blue lit turf. Some folks.
Anyway, I don't think it is reasonable to interpret the Fla.M.V.C. as deeming DOT approved HIDs to be "blue lights."
2x6spds
2x6