AP1 or AP2
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 478
Likes: 32
From: Norfolk
Fwiw, I've never seen Honda itself state that AP1 = engine. APx is the chassis and the classic definition of such is more than a powerplant. Not sure where that is coming from.. Maybe it's a British thing?
My personal theory is that if Honda wanted to re-classify the chassis in Europe, it would have had to spend money on a new round of crashworthiness and recertification, so it just kept the original designation because it was easier for it, not for us to later divine the differences. Perhaps it had to do such a thing in NA, but not elsewhere, so it limited costs this way.
Also, again, 2004 was not just a facelift - hundreds of additional changes were made beyond cosmetics.
My personal theory is that if Honda wanted to re-classify the chassis in Europe, it would have had to spend money on a new round of crashworthiness and recertification, so it just kept the original designation because it was easier for it, not for us to later divine the differences. Perhaps it had to do such a thing in NA, but not elsewhere, so it limited costs this way.
Also, again, 2004 was not just a facelift - hundreds of additional changes were made beyond cosmetics.
However nonsensical you think that may be, that is FACT.
Get any owner of a post 2004 F20 engined car anywhere in the world to show you their chassis code and it will state AP1 and any F22 engined car (from the factory), will state AP2.
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,751
Likes: 1,855
Fwiw, I've never seen Honda itself state that AP1 = engine. APx is the chassis and the classic definition of such is more than a powerplant. Not sure where that is coming from.. Maybe it's a British thing?
My personal theory is that if Honda wanted to re-classify the chassis in Europe, it would have had to spend money on a new round of crashworthiness and recertification, so it just kept the original designation because it was easier for it, not for us to later divine the differences. Perhaps it had to do such a thing in NA, but not elsewhere, so it limited costs this way.
Also, again, 2004 was not just a facelift - hundreds of additional changes were made beyond cosmetics.
My personal theory is that if Honda wanted to re-classify the chassis in Europe, it would have had to spend money on a new round of crashworthiness and recertification, so it just kept the original designation because it was easier for it, not for us to later divine the differences. Perhaps it had to do such a thing in NA, but not elsewhere, so it limited costs this way.
Also, again, 2004 was not just a facelift - hundreds of additional changes were made beyond cosmetics.
If, for example, you are in USA, and Honda in your country uses AP2 interchangeably with 2004 chassis update, is that because it in fact designates the chassis updates, or simply because in your country the F22c happened to coincide with the chassis updates, and ap2 is therefore a convenient way to refer to either/both?
If you conclude the former, and are then presented with convincing evidence that contradicts your conclusion/viewpoint, your reaction to such may be an indicator of your intelligence.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 110
Likes: 3
From: Woking Surrey
As has been said, AP1 refers ONLY to the engine. All UK cars (and those fitted with the F20C engine worldwide) have the AP1 VIN code irrespective of model year and so in truth are AP1s.
The confusion stems from the fact that at the same time as the 2004 facelift, the US cars received the AP2 designation code relating to the F22 engine. Because S2000s in the US then only ever got this engine from 2004 onwards (with the F20C being discontinued), ALL facelifted cars tend to get referred to as the AP2, as that is what our US cousins refer to as the face-lift cars (as that is all they got from that point onwards). It then got confused across the pond with all face-lift cars being attributed as AP2s (perhaps the US peeps not realising in the early days that not everyone had the F22 engines from 2004 onwards).
The engine (DBW, VSA etc), suspension and wheel revisions were still phased in throughout the world across all engine types at the same year point and the Japanese market even received the AP2 engine in the last few years of production.
Unfortunately the above will not stop people from referring to all facelifts as AP2s, as they believe that is / should be the facelift designation and not the engine designation (which is what it really is).
It is probably best to refer to model year and designatory code to get an exact idea of car.
For example, mine is a a MY2005 AP1, which means it is a facelift (post 2004), throttle cable (pre-2006) F20C (AP1) car with the V1 17" wheels, where a MY2006 AP1 would be a facelift (post 2004), DBW (post 2006) F20C (AP1) car with V2 17" wheels.
A MY2005 AP2 would mean it is a facelift (post 2004), throttle cable (pre 2006) F22C (AP2) car with the V1 17" wheels etc etc. As long as you know the model year and the engine designation, you should easily be able to identify the precise model.
The confusion stems from the fact that at the same time as the 2004 facelift, the US cars received the AP2 designation code relating to the F22 engine. Because S2000s in the US then only ever got this engine from 2004 onwards (with the F20C being discontinued), ALL facelifted cars tend to get referred to as the AP2, as that is what our US cousins refer to as the face-lift cars (as that is all they got from that point onwards). It then got confused across the pond with all face-lift cars being attributed as AP2s (perhaps the US peeps not realising in the early days that not everyone had the F22 engines from 2004 onwards).
The engine (DBW, VSA etc), suspension and wheel revisions were still phased in throughout the world across all engine types at the same year point and the Japanese market even received the AP2 engine in the last few years of production.
Unfortunately the above will not stop people from referring to all facelifts as AP2s, as they believe that is / should be the facelift designation and not the engine designation (which is what it really is).
It is probably best to refer to model year and designatory code to get an exact idea of car.
For example, mine is a a MY2005 AP1, which means it is a facelift (post 2004), throttle cable (pre-2006) F20C (AP1) car with the V1 17" wheels, where a MY2006 AP1 would be a facelift (post 2004), DBW (post 2006) F20C (AP1) car with V2 17" wheels.
A MY2005 AP2 would mean it is a facelift (post 2004), throttle cable (pre 2006) F22C (AP2) car with the V1 17" wheels etc etc. As long as you know the model year and the engine designation, you should easily be able to identify the precise model.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 110
Likes: 3
From: Woking Surrey
The confusion is from observing something, and making an erroneous conclusion. A confusion that is not uncommon, and once made, is often difficult to dislodge.
If, for example, you are in USA, and Honda in your country uses AP2 interchangeably with 2004 chassis update, is that because it in fact designates the chassis updates, or simply because in your country the F22c happened to coincide with the chassis updates, and ap2 is therefore a convenient way to refer to either/both?
If you conclude the former, and are then presented with convincing evidence that contradicts your conclusion/viewpoint, your reaction to such may be an indicator of your intelligence.
If, for example, you are in USA, and Honda in your country uses AP2 interchangeably with 2004 chassis update, is that because it in fact designates the chassis updates, or simply because in your country the F22c happened to coincide with the chassis updates, and ap2 is therefore a convenient way to refer to either/both?
If you conclude the former, and are then presented with convincing evidence that contradicts your conclusion/viewpoint, your reaction to such may be an indicator of your intelligence.
Moderator
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 36,017
Likes: 226
From: Queen City, NC
The confusion is from observing something, and making an erroneous conclusion. A confusion that is not uncommon, and once made, is often difficult to dislodge.
If, for example, you are in USA, and Honda in your country uses AP2 interchangeably with 2004 chassis update, is that because it in fact designates the chassis updates, or simply because in your country the F22c happened to coincide with the chassis updates, and ap2 is therefore a convenient way to refer to either/both?
If you conclude the former, and are then presented with convincing evidence that contradicts your conclusion/viewpoint, your reaction to such may be an indicator of your intelligence.
If, for example, you are in USA, and Honda in your country uses AP2 interchangeably with 2004 chassis update, is that because it in fact designates the chassis updates, or simply because in your country the F22c happened to coincide with the chassis updates, and ap2 is therefore a convenient way to refer to either/both?
If you conclude the former, and are then presented with convincing evidence that contradicts your conclusion/viewpoint, your reaction to such may be an indicator of your intelligence.
At least now there's a good discussion on it, which is great because that's how we elaborate on these details and perspectives. No need to be an ass about it though.
Administrator
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 95,183
Likes: 69
From: Heath & Reach, Beds, UK
In 2004, every S2000 changed to AP2 chassis worldwide but F20C engines were placed into AP2 cars for another couple years outside the North American market. F20C engines were also revised during this time to include many of the updates in the F22C.
Every AP2 has the AP2 suspension, trans, gearing, body, interior etc. except for the AP2s sold outside NA with the F20C engine and corresponding instrument panel with the 9k redline.
So, the AP1 chassis sold with F20C engine from 2000-20003. The AP2 chassis sold with F22C engine in North America from 2004 on. Japan had the AP2 with the F20C until 2006, and Europe, Asia, and the Middle East switched at different times from 2004-2007, if at all.
Every AP2 has the AP2 suspension, trans, gearing, body, interior etc. except for the AP2s sold outside NA with the F20C engine and corresponding instrument panel with the 9k redline.
So, the AP1 chassis sold with F20C engine from 2000-20003. The AP2 chassis sold with F22C engine in North America from 2004 on. Japan had the AP2 with the F20C until 2006, and Europe, Asia, and the Middle East switched at different times from 2004-2007, if at all.
in UK they are still AP1 and the chassis number is AP1
