AP1 vs AP2 question for the father of the S2K (2007)
03-11-2018, 09:35 AM
#11
Thread Starter
Total Ap1 US sales for the 4 years of production, (2000-2003 MY), were 37,451- for an average of 9,362 per year.
Total Ap2 sales in the US for the 6 years of production, (2004-2009 MY), were just 29,096 - for an average of 4,849 per year, just over half the average annual sales of the ap1.
(Data from Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_S2000).
Some might say that the decision to soften the car, and increase the torque a bit, was a bad marketing decision that set the the course for the ultimate failure of the s2k in the market place. Others would say the changes were not a cause of the market failure. I have no doubt there were many factors. But, no one really knows for sure if the ap2 changes played a role.
Of course, its not surprising that the Honda designers and marketing team would take the view that the ap2 changes were a major step forward for the car. After all, the ap2 represented their collective professional effort to break out of the small but reliable niche they carved out with the ap1. Sadly, their efforts were not successful - they lost any competitive edge they had developed in a small niche of the roadster market with the ap1, and ultimately the car had to be dropped.
I suspect the vast majority of the S2ki community would vote in favor of the ap2 as the "superior" car in a poll. From my personal perspective, I say more power to them, it has a tendency to keep the supply of of the ap1 model high, and that keeps the prices a bit lower. That is a good thing from my perspective for now - because I am a recent ap1 buyer. Down the road I will likely be a seller, or my children may be. It will be interesting to see how the ap1 and the ap2 prices morph over the next 20 years. Maybe I'll live to see a day when the ap1 is bringing more than the ap2? That is my gamble. My kids will reap the gains if it turns out that I made a good bet.
As far as objectively determining whether the ap1 or the ap2 is the superior vehicle? Frankly, it is a pointless debate because, as the old saying goes, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder." We all have our own personal views regarding which version we prefer and we can certainly share our opinions and new buyers can read them and consider them. Beyond that - what is the point? Seems to me we have spilled enough ink on topic all over these pages. I am as guilty as the next guy in that regard.
Total Ap2 sales in the US for the 6 years of production, (2004-2009 MY), were just 29,096 - for an average of 4,849 per year, just over half the average annual sales of the ap1.
(Data from Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_S2000).
Some might say that the decision to soften the car, and increase the torque a bit, was a bad marketing decision that set the the course for the ultimate failure of the s2k in the market place. Others would say the changes were not a cause of the market failure. I have no doubt there were many factors. But, no one really knows for sure if the ap2 changes played a role.
Of course, its not surprising that the Honda designers and marketing team would take the view that the ap2 changes were a major step forward for the car. After all, the ap2 represented their collective professional effort to break out of the small but reliable niche they carved out with the ap1. Sadly, their efforts were not successful - they lost any competitive edge they had developed in a small niche of the roadster market with the ap1, and ultimately the car had to be dropped.
I suspect the vast majority of the S2ki community would vote in favor of the ap2 as the "superior" car in a poll. From my personal perspective, I say more power to them, it has a tendency to keep the supply of of the ap1 model high, and that keeps the prices a bit lower. That is a good thing from my perspective for now - because I am a recent ap1 buyer. Down the road I will likely be a seller, or my children may be. It will be interesting to see how the ap1 and the ap2 prices morph over the next 20 years. Maybe I'll live to see a day when the ap1 is bringing more than the ap2? That is my gamble. My kids will reap the gains if it turns out that I made a good bet.
As far as objectively determining whether the ap1 or the ap2 is the superior vehicle? Frankly, it is a pointless debate because, as the old saying goes, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder." We all have our own personal views regarding which version we prefer and we can certainly share our opinions and new buyers can read them and consider them. Beyond that - what is the point? Seems to me we have spilled enough ink on topic all over these pages. I am as guilty as the next guy in that regard.
it's a sports car and sales were never strong enough to warrant future generations like a 911 or Vette. for a car company like Honda what pays the bills are accords, civics and pilots. also what Honda put into a bespoke sports car whose mechanical architecture wasn't used on other honda models didn't make sense financially, this is also what killed the RX8. the reason a company like BMW can sell low sales volumes of M3 or M5, they make up for it with the high numbers of 320, 330, 340 they do sell. current and future affordable sports cars will be joint ventures a'la Toyota/Subaru, Mazda/Fiat and Toyota/BMW. the Nissan Z lives on because it shares it's architecture with the Infiniti coupe, but when Nissan decides to forgo a coupe there won't be another Z.
lastly the recession that started in 08 is what killed the S2000. it also killed Honda's efforts in F1 to cut on spending.
if Honda comes out with another S2000 which I don't think they will. it won't be a bespoke car like the AP1/AP2, they would have to use existing mechanicals from other models, and make sure that the rwd platform is global and could be used in other future models to recoup the development cost. this is also why people were asking Honda to make all Acura sedans RWD back in the day, if they did the S2000 might have continued.
03-11-2018, 09:37 AM
#12
Well, you can take it how you wish, but I am very skeptical that you heard the man's true opinions. Also, you are missing my overall point which is that it does not matter one wit. Rather that feed the trolls on this issue, lets all stick to together. The s2k is a terrific little car, no matter the model year. If there was just one s2k left in the universe, but it was an ap1, would you pass it up? I don't think so. 
03-11-2018, 09:44 AM
#13
I'm sure it was a big factor. Maybe, but why not the Miata, or the other cars you mention? The sales numbers were tanking before that recession hit. Something else was going on, the recession was the nail in the coffin. But, again, it doesn't matter. Clearly, most American's did not like the Honda S-2000. Not even most sports car enthusiasts liked the S-2000. So what?
Last edited by rpg51; 03-11-2018 at 10:03 AM.
03-11-2018, 10:45 AM
#14
Thread Starter
I'm sure it was a big factor. Maybe, but why not the Miata, or the other cars you mention? The sales numbers were tanking before that recession hit. Something else was going on, the recession was the nail in the coffin. But, again, it doesn't matter. Clearly, most American's did not like the Honda S-2000. Not even most sports car enthusiasts liked the S-2000. So what?
also originally the S2000 to be a true anniversary car it was only supposed to be produced for one year but that didn't happen. maybe Honda felt a 10 year run was enough.
i agree with the most americans part. i know for me as a F1 fan since 92 i like high revving motors, and it didn't hurt that when they developed the S2000 they had pictures Ayrton Senna inside his MP4/4 as inspiration.
sports car enthusiast appreciated the S2000 and some even bought them. journalist that reviewed loved the car and there wasn't one that said it was a bad car to own or drive.
03-11-2018, 12:14 PM
#15
Whatever.
03-11-2018, 08:38 PM
#17
These threads are my favorite. Almost as much as (in no particular order):
- Which oil is best (or the "Amsoil Cult Freaks Come Out At Night")?
- Will using anything but 75w140 or LE7506060606 diff fluid cause my diff to break? (Answer: "Yes, 75w90 sucks, might as well use sand!")
- Look Ma,
I Ruined My Car (Stanced)
03-12-2018, 12:41 PM
#18
These threads are my favorite. Almost as much as (in no particular order):
- Which oil is best (or the "Amsoil Cult Freaks Come Out At Night")?
- Will using anything but 75w140 or LE7506060606 diff fluid cause my diff to break? (Answer: "Yes, 75w90 sucks, might as well use sand!")
- Look Ma,
I Ruined My Car (Stanced)
Their AP1 vs AP2 is C5 vs C6.
Heaven forbid someone post up something with painted black wheels.
03-12-2018, 12:44 PM
#19
lol.
seems like this thread still has some pictures that are still on servers.
Pictures S2000 Homecoming Meet 2007
seems like this thread still has some pictures that are still on servers.
Pictures S2000 Homecoming Meet 2007
03-12-2018, 04:07 PM
#20
I would venture to say (coming from an AP2 owner) that he was referencing the AP2 model given it was the current model available at dealerships in 2007. Like a good Honda man, he was promoting the latest product on the showroom floor. Despite it being a gathering of owners, can't be good PR for the quintessential S2000 Honda guy to say the old used models were better and the new cars are not what people should buy. At least if he wanted to keep his job at Honda he wouldn't say that!