Autoweek article
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Joined: Feb 2002
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From: NOVA/SI NY
Good to see your response QUIKAG, you did seem a little harsh on Pedal there. Sometimes it all gets lost in translation. I think a lot of the time the whole lift throttle thing gets confusing to some as there are a lot of non track/autocross drivers hitting off ramps (probably faster than their talent would dictate), then snapping the throttle shut at the first sign of a little rotation when fear gets the best of them....ooops, it's all over but the increased insurance.
Classic example of when not to lift: Le circuit Mont-Tremblant before they re-did it (it's awesome now - wish I could go), turn 3 was, at my speeds anyway generally flat out. Well I'd gotten a good run this one lap - and chickened out when I got there so I lifted jusssst a bit. Man thank god the E36 M3 is a way begnign car. I can still hear, yes hear, my instructor go pale. Had I come out of the throttle just a little more.....like QUIKAG said ...if your lifting mid corner you don't know how to drive - I didn't then (still barely do) and it could have been a mess.
Guess we've gotten off topic - just to not be a hijacker, hope my Autoweek gets here on thursday like it does sometimes and this preview is in it. Oh and can't wait for the write-up of last weeks US GP
Classic example of when not to lift: Le circuit Mont-Tremblant before they re-did it (it's awesome now - wish I could go), turn 3 was, at my speeds anyway generally flat out. Well I'd gotten a good run this one lap - and chickened out when I got there so I lifted jusssst a bit. Man thank god the E36 M3 is a way begnign car. I can still hear, yes hear, my instructor go pale. Had I come out of the throttle just a little more.....like QUIKAG said ...if your lifting mid corner you don't know how to drive - I didn't then (still barely do) and it could have been a mess.
Guess we've gotten off topic - just to not be a hijacker, hope my Autoweek gets here on thursday like it does sometimes and this preview is in it. Oh and can't wait for the write-up of last weeks US GP
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,014
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From: Seattle, WA
[QUOTE]Originally posted by QUIKAG
if you're going full throttle into the sweeper and have to lift off the throttle fast enough to induce a lift oversteer situation or "snap oversteer" as you guys seem to define it, then you screwed up.
if you're going full throttle into the sweeper and have to lift off the throttle fast enough to induce a lift oversteer situation or "snap oversteer" as you guys seem to define it, then you screwed up.
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 946
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From: NOVA/SI NY
Steve - my quote of QUIKAG was a play at myself. I use lift throttle myself to rate the nose. In the turn I was describing however, an off camber downhill, you don't want to lift unless you were like me on my 3rd trackday and pretty damn stupid. Of course, the problem with learning how to drive by listening to advice on forums, or reading "Going Faster" without actually going to the track/autocross is that you accept generalizations like "Never lift in a turn".
I personally bristle everytime someone new to the car posts to say that the car is a little loose, and they get a myriad of posts saying "Don't lift in a turn". I always picture someone without much driving knowledge holding firm to that advice, and plowing into the outside guardrail after they've entered an on/off ramp too fast, on the wrong line, but are terrified to lift. I didn't mention the track because a novice has an instructor in there with them showing them the line and getting them up to speed.
I personally bristle everytime someone new to the car posts to say that the car is a little loose, and they get a myriad of posts saying "Don't lift in a turn". I always picture someone without much driving knowledge holding firm to that advice, and plowing into the outside guardrail after they've entered an on/off ramp too fast, on the wrong line, but are terrified to lift. I didn't mention the track because a novice has an instructor in there with them showing them the line and getting them up to speed.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 9,510
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From: Dallas
vroom, pedal faster:
In my original response in this thread, I was intentionally harsh to incite (for lack of a better word) some debate.
We can argue semantics all day long, there are thousands and thousands of corners/turns at the tracks around the world and each and every one of them is different in way one or another, so the way you approach that corner is different.
One thing I think we can all agree on is that if there is any sort of lift throttle 'snap oversteer' then somebody screwed up. You overdrove the car. Each car has different handling characteristics and the S2000 is a very neutral machine that can be encouraged to do any number of things depending on braking, throttle, and steering input.
At an S2000 autocross two weekends ago, there was a right hand transition followed shortly thereafter by a left hand transition and then a 90 degree left hand turn. I would come out of the right hand transition at full throttle causing rotation at the back end, as I entered the left hand transition, I would quickly snap the steering wheel to the left and lift throttle momentarily causing the back end to rotate back to the right setting up for the left hand turn. Great fun.
I think we all know how to handle our cars in varying capacities and we're auto enthusiasts, so we can define our automobile terms in whatever fashion we each so choose. That said, please look up the word 'snap' in a dictionary and think about a rubber back. You have to pull the rubber band in one direction to get it to 'snap' into the other direction. A prime example is BIG mistake I made when I was 21 (5 years ago) when I rented an Acura NSX and proceeded to learn a fairly costly lesson in mid-engine lift throttle snap oversteer. I quickly corrected one direction hard and it was all over at that point as it came back around HARD. I'm sure those of you with NSX experience can attest to what happened.
In my original response in this thread, I was intentionally harsh to incite (for lack of a better word) some debate.
We can argue semantics all day long, there are thousands and thousands of corners/turns at the tracks around the world and each and every one of them is different in way one or another, so the way you approach that corner is different.
One thing I think we can all agree on is that if there is any sort of lift throttle 'snap oversteer' then somebody screwed up. You overdrove the car. Each car has different handling characteristics and the S2000 is a very neutral machine that can be encouraged to do any number of things depending on braking, throttle, and steering input.
At an S2000 autocross two weekends ago, there was a right hand transition followed shortly thereafter by a left hand transition and then a 90 degree left hand turn. I would come out of the right hand transition at full throttle causing rotation at the back end, as I entered the left hand transition, I would quickly snap the steering wheel to the left and lift throttle momentarily causing the back end to rotate back to the right setting up for the left hand turn. Great fun.
I think we all know how to handle our cars in varying capacities and we're auto enthusiasts, so we can define our automobile terms in whatever fashion we each so choose. That said, please look up the word 'snap' in a dictionary and think about a rubber back. You have to pull the rubber band in one direction to get it to 'snap' into the other direction. A prime example is BIG mistake I made when I was 21 (5 years ago) when I rented an Acura NSX and proceeded to learn a fairly costly lesson in mid-engine lift throttle snap oversteer. I quickly corrected one direction hard and it was all over at that point as it came back around HARD. I'm sure those of you with NSX experience can attest to what happened.