Brake upgrades and options
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Joined: Jan 2006
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From: Kodak, TN
Originally Posted by Ravenwerk,Jun 16 2006, 07:22 PM
Drew, I for one would like to thank you for the time you're spending compiling these S2000 primers. To many owners "not in the know" can certainly use some groundwork just like this to point them in the right direction and IMO you're doing an excellent job of laying some basic cornerstones. 
I still consider myself a noob to the S and I love being able to read about someone else's research that is very well put together. This is by far the best car related community. 
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Originally Posted by slipstream444,Jun 17 2006, 11:48 AM
Why you would have to change a high performance fluid more often?
The two main factors that affect brake fluid life is heat and moisture.
A 'higher performance' fluid is designed to handle heat better than OEM - so heat will not be as much of a factor as it would for the stock brake fluid.
Moisture affects most brake fluids in the same way. The limits for water saturation depends on the fluid and the car manufacturer. The typical limit is around 2.0%-3.0% water saturation. Above these numbers you start to see brake system corrosion.
One of the better all around fluids available is ATE. It comes in ATE Super Blue, and in a conventional (oil) color. ATE does not absorb as much water as most other high performance brake fluids and tolerates track events well. I believe it's OEM for BMW.
The two main factors that affect brake fluid life is heat and moisture.
A 'higher performance' fluid is designed to handle heat better than OEM - so heat will not be as much of a factor as it would for the stock brake fluid.
Moisture affects most brake fluids in the same way. The limits for water saturation depends on the fluid and the car manufacturer. The typical limit is around 2.0%-3.0% water saturation. Above these numbers you start to see brake system corrosion.
One of the better all around fluids available is ATE. It comes in ATE Super Blue, and in a conventional (oil) color. ATE does not absorb as much water as most other high performance brake fluids and tolerates track events well. I believe it's OEM for BMW.
Joined: Oct 2000
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From: WA
Originally Posted by slipstream444,Jun 17 2006, 02:06 PM
I believe I read the article when it came out - if it's the one I'm thinking of - it was crap.
If I remember correctly, they didn't set things up to accurately measure the true performance of the brakes/pads. There was no scientific method used to measure the results - they just kind of randomly ran the cars through the brake trap without consideration for a number of variables that would affect the results.
To be accurate the test should have used the same baseline setup to ensure accurate measurement of the data:
You need to weigh all the cars and/or ensure the cars are within a few pounds of each other; the cars need to use the same wheel and tire combo; the test needs to be repeated several times - with the interval maintained among the cars; several drivers need to repeat the test in each of the cars to develop a deviation trend among drivers.
Additionally, the non-street pads need to be properly seated in and at the right temp before they provide any benefit.
If I'm not mistaken - the 2005 OEM numbers they posted in the test did not match the latest data they had posted for the S2000 either.
If I remember correctly, they didn't set things up to accurately measure the true performance of the brakes/pads. There was no scientific method used to measure the results - they just kind of randomly ran the cars through the brake trap without consideration for a number of variables that would affect the results.
To be accurate the test should have used the same baseline setup to ensure accurate measurement of the data:
You need to weigh all the cars and/or ensure the cars are within a few pounds of each other; the cars need to use the same wheel and tire combo; the test needs to be repeated several times - with the interval maintained among the cars; several drivers need to repeat the test in each of the cars to develop a deviation trend among drivers.
Additionally, the non-street pads need to be properly seated in and at the right temp before they provide any benefit.
If I'm not mistaken - the 2005 OEM numbers they posted in the test did not match the latest data they had posted for the S2000 either.
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,628
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From: lost angeles
Originally Posted by cdelena,Jun 17 2006, 01:19 PM
The biggest factor in braking distances between similar cars is wheel and tire sizes. The S2000 comes with capable brakes, needs only a pad and fluid change to manage the heat for a very track capable setup, but a set of fat race tires will make all the difference in distances.
Comtech ------- 205ft -- advan ao48 225/265
05 OEM --------- 207ft -- potenza re050 215/255
Mackin -----------216ft --michelin pilot sport cup 245/255
AEM --------------240ft -- toyo proxes 4 225/245
David Karner -- 260ft -- toyo proxes ra1 245/275
Greg Park -------279ft -- advan ao48 225/235
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From: denver
this is what i bought from cobaltfriction.com
new pads:
.....assis ultimate sku09.08290 & sku109.05370
fluid from a local honda dealer:
.....motul rbf600 dot4
i also got a set ft/bk braded hoses, my car is an 2001 w/ 60Kmiles, mainly because it just getting old warn out. the hoses are short.
my plan was to autox the car, events this year are preventing this, on the street cant tell any difference.
on a sportbike the pads, fluid and hoses made a big difference but again on the track or while an endo.
on the street its just survival, buy some wax instead.
new pads:
.....assis ultimate sku09.08290 & sku109.05370
fluid from a local honda dealer:
.....motul rbf600 dot4
i also got a set ft/bk braded hoses, my car is an 2001 w/ 60Kmiles, mainly because it just getting old warn out. the hoses are short.
my plan was to autox the car, events this year are preventing this, on the street cant tell any difference.
on a sportbike the pads, fluid and hoses made a big difference but again on the track or while an endo.
on the street its just survival, buy some wax instead.
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,216
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From: NM/CO
Originally Posted by cdelena,Jun 17 2006, 03:19 PM
The S2000 comes with capable brakes, needs only a pad and fluid change to manage the heat for a very track capable setup, but a set of fat race tires will make all the difference in distances.
too many people make changes without know what the car can do. I have 6-7K miles on the track and I have never had brake fade, and am still using the orginal calipers with aftermarker pads and brake fluid. And the car has 108K.And good write up, but I believe that this is an upgrade that you make after you learned to push this car with what you already have.
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Quote "While slotted rotors are definitely stronger than their drilled counterparts, they too offer the disadvantage of reduced surface area and therefore less stopping power. For high performance/racing applications, solid OEM rotors will stop you as well or better than just about anything out there."
Research reveals that MOST circuit racing categories that use ferrous brake rotor material Do use mostly slotted rotors, BECAUSE of the performance benifits (ie; clearing rotor faces of gaseous release from pads). A slotted rotor will also produce pad knock off slower than an unslotted one.
Finally, in a performance situation, rotors would be routinely replaced anyway......so cracking due to weakened structure is negligible.
Research reveals that MOST circuit racing categories that use ferrous brake rotor material Do use mostly slotted rotors, BECAUSE of the performance benifits (ie; clearing rotor faces of gaseous release from pads). A slotted rotor will also produce pad knock off slower than an unslotted one.
Finally, in a performance situation, rotors would be routinely replaced anyway......so cracking due to weakened structure is negligible.
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 95
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From: Dubai, UAE
drewchie, I cannot thank you enough for the excellent article. I had just collected my 2004 S2000 just two weeks before, and had been contemplating making the switch over to steel braided brake lines, DOT5 fluid, and Pagid Blue pads.
I'd been discouraged from using DOT5 since humidity in Dubai summer will introduce moisture in the fluid and I do not need the extra performance since the car is mostly on the street.
I had steel braided brake lines on my Evolution IX and I can say it made a world of difference. Your article has confirmed my greatest hopes, that the S2000 is so well-built out of the factory that to really work on improving the performance of the car will take lots of time, money and energy (and a tolerant better half). Either blow a huge wad of dough on the car, or don't at all
So, braking enhancements are out, and so is the I/H/E mod I was eyeing (canned after reading another post that it doesn't deliver huge gains), and this leaves me with just dressing up the car. There was another post which talked about increasing rim size to 18" but some people experienced less than desirable effects to camber and subsequently, handling, so I'm leaving that out as well until I decide to invest in a really really good set of coilovers (which won't be until I find a really realy good mechanic in Dubai).
Thanks a million again for an excellent article!
I'd been discouraged from using DOT5 since humidity in Dubai summer will introduce moisture in the fluid and I do not need the extra performance since the car is mostly on the street.
I had steel braided brake lines on my Evolution IX and I can say it made a world of difference. Your article has confirmed my greatest hopes, that the S2000 is so well-built out of the factory that to really work on improving the performance of the car will take lots of time, money and energy (and a tolerant better half). Either blow a huge wad of dough on the car, or don't at all
So, braking enhancements are out, and so is the I/H/E mod I was eyeing (canned after reading another post that it doesn't deliver huge gains), and this leaves me with just dressing up the car. There was another post which talked about increasing rim size to 18" but some people experienced less than desirable effects to camber and subsequently, handling, so I'm leaving that out as well until I decide to invest in a really really good set of coilovers (which won't be until I find a really realy good mechanic in Dubai).
Thanks a million again for an excellent article!
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,953
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From: 17 ft below sea level.
@ ghoonk :
DO NOT USE DOT 5 BRAKE FLUID!
IT IS NOT COMPATIBLE WITH THE S2000 BRAKE SYSTEM!
IT WILL RUIN YOUR SEALS!
Is is ok to use DOT 5.1 (notice the 1)
Have a look at the link about brake fluid posted earlier.
DO NOT USE DOT 5 BRAKE FLUID!
IT IS NOT COMPATIBLE WITH THE S2000 BRAKE SYSTEM!
IT WILL RUIN YOUR SEALS!
Is is ok to use DOT 5.1 (notice the 1)
Have a look at the link about brake fluid posted earlier.
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Joined: Jun 2006
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From: Dubai, UAE
oops, sorry. I meant DOT5.1. Had Fereodo Racing DOT5.1 in my Evo. Good stuff.
Anyway, those days are over, and if you guys don't mind, I feel a overwhelming and compelling need to drive my S2000
Gawd, I love this car
Anyway, those days are over, and if you guys don't mind, I feel a overwhelming and compelling need to drive my S2000
Gawd, I love this car