ToyBoy

I just read a Q&A in either this month's US edition of Car & Driver or Motor Trend in which the technical editor responds to a question about whether or not there are special additives in the factory fill for Hondas.

He says there isn't.

But then there's that very persuasive PDF in the FAQs here (https://www.s2ki.com/faqs/faqpdf/ServiceUpdate.pdf) which looks official and which does recommend leaving the oil in until the first normal or severe service interval.

Who to believe?

I have to say that in every new car I have ever bought I have changed the oil at 500, 1500 and then again at 3000 miles. That's exactly the advice the magazine editor gives. It seems to me that early, frequent oil changes are nothing in terms of cost to make sure that a new engine -- in this case a very high performance engine with tight tolerances and advanced technology -- gets proper and clean lubrication.

But if there's "magic juice" in the factory fill, that might change the thinking.

Does anyone know someone technical at Honda who might be able to settle this? Can anyone tell us where the official looking PDF in the FAQ comes from? I'm not really looking for a debate on the merits of one approach or the other, but for some way to authenticate the PDF as an official Honda recommendation.

Debate will rage, but there is either an official recommendation or there isn't. There's either magic juice or not. Does anyone know for sure?

dlq04

Honda published the following in a TSB to their dealerships - believe who you want.

"BREAK-IN OIL. Because the piston rings, piston rod bearings, cam bearings, and crankshaft main bearings continue to

Woodson

It's actually this month's Road and Track, for anyone who was looking for it. The one with the RX8 on the cover.

ToyBoy

Ooopsss.

I read 'em all. And except for the outrageous writing in Car & Driver (which is clever enough to sometimes make me laugh out loud; see their review of the Cadillac Escalade EXT), they are all the same.

StwoK

Remember our cylinder walls have fiber re-enforced liners which require a special oil and break-in period, according to Honda. Honda has added Molly ( molybdenum disulfide ) to the factory fill. Moly is a solid lubricant which will bond to engine surfaces when exposed to heat and pressure. I think it was Blackstone labs that did the oil analysis and proved the factory fill was not normal oil and there was a high concentration of Moly ! At one time Blackstone gave a discount if you were a member of this board ....... I think it was around $20.00 for their services. www.blackstone-labs.com

Road and Track is out-to-lunch on this one. What other production engine is like ours ??? Zero ! None. Do a search on blackstone for more info. By the way, look at a quart of Honda 10w-30 motor oil. It has the Mobil label on it. And in another test, RedLine 10w-30 synthetic had the highest concentration of Moly found.

The Service.pdf that you refer to above, was given to me by my local dealer last October. I sent it to Hondagal and she added to the FAQs page. It is the latest update from Honda.

cdelena

[QUOTE]Originally posted by StwoK
[B]Remember our cylinder walls have fiber re-enforced liners which require a special oil and break-in period, according to Honda.

StwoK

You 've hit the nail on the head once, but forgot to finish the job ! Yes, a Moly rich lube is used during the build of most engines around various valve train parts and engine bearings. And that is the point here! When the engine is started and heats up, the Moly rich lubricant is dissolved into the oil and becomes part of it. So Moly is present until you drain the oil from the engine and replace the fresh oil. Hence the Factory Fill with a special additive. And Blackstone Labs have proven there is a high amount of Moly in the factory fill.

For what ever reason, Honda has determined that a longer break-in period is beneficial to our engines. Honda does not prescribe this treatment for any other automotive engine sold in the US that I know of. Our engines have fiber re-enforced cylinder walls (like no others) and just maybe, Honda believes that Moly has a role here. Maybe, Honda wants the Moly to fill in the microscopic pores in the fiber walls, resulting in a healthier/stronger running engine. Just a guess here. But it does make sense !

jschmidt

Good thinking StwoK. Don't drain the assembly lube. Finally a believable middle-ground explanation for "break in oil"

dlq04

Even though I was born in a place called Oil City, just a stones throw from Drakes Well (first production well) I don't claim to know or understand what goes into today's stuff. Hell, they used to sell crude oil as medicine. But I keep asking myself why so many have such difficulty in accepting the fact that Honda may have a special formula for break-in oil for this engine. To compare this engine to other engines makes no sense to me. Consider this insight per R&T: To reach its horsepower goal the piston speed is a racy 4575 feet per minute at peak power (8300 rpm). For years a piston speed of 4000 fpm was considered some kind of limit. Although F1 engine bore and stroke are no longer published, Road & Track reports their current maximum piston speeds are likely in the range of 4500 to 5000 fpm. At redline the S2000 would be doing 4960 fpm! These F-1 type numbers in a production engine show Honda isn

ToyBoy

I appreciate your point.

But in fact, this is counter the experience of most car owners. All owner's manuals suggest that initial fill remain until the first service interval because manufacturers want lowered ownership costs. So there's nothing new there. People who care about engine longevity ignore this advice and drain and refill two or three times under 5K miles.

TSBs don't always come from the engineers who designed the product. So, the fact that Honda sent a TSB (which most dealers ignore until forced to look for them) doesn't mean that the factory uses something special.

What bothers me most is that the owner's manual -- which is authoritative (recalls sometimes change the text of the owner's manual; that's how important the regulators consider them) -- isn't explicit on this point. It is explicit on staying below VTEC for 500 miles for example, but the oil service interval is no different than it would be for any other Honda. If initial fill is important, why not mention it in the break-in recommendations?

That begs the question: is the long oil service interval because you must leave the initial fill oil in or because Honda wants to reduce maintenance costs?