Could it be the tires (causing the crashes)???
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2001
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From: New York
People!
All of you have put out a tonne of useful information on this thread.
Thank you all.
I am in group1, (age 23, More driving on FWD cars)
this is my first RWD sports car..
In the discussions there was a mention about "driving school"..
the "learn to drive your car" sort...
where can I find these schools..I live on long island..NY
Could anyone please give more pointers on that?
Thanks,
Ram
All of you have put out a tonne of useful information on this thread.
Thank you all.
I am in group1, (age 23, More driving on FWD cars)
this is my first RWD sports car..
In the discussions there was a mention about "driving school"..
the "learn to drive your car" sort...
where can I find these schools..I live on long island..NY
Could anyone please give more pointers on that?
Thanks,
Ram
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 20,274
Likes: 4
From: Toronto, Canada
bump-steer...forget it, how this got introduced is beyond me so let's just set that aside.
The issue is this: Is the S-02 tire a contributing factor in accidents involving the S2000? Thus the answer must be no. We can all speculate about what the weakest link in the suspension is but that's not what is being discussed and I seriously doubt we could come to any meaningful conclusion without substantial measured testing. If you doubt my interpretation of the topic at hand, go back and read the first post.
Fact: The Bridgestone Potenza S-02 Honda OE tire is the best performing dry weather non-competition tire available for the S2000. What do I mean? Simply put, "10/10" on an OE S-02 is faster than on any other street tire. What happens at 11/10 is ugly but so it is with any other tire.
Fact: The warning you get that you are at or nearing the limit, "10/10", of the tire's traction capacity (given the current conditions) is almost non-existent on the S-02. They don't roll or squeal, they just grip like mad. Other tires are reported to offer some advance warning, perhaps at 9 or 9.5 or 10 that they can't take much more. The OE S-02 does not.
Fact: If you exceed 10/10 (given the current conditions) the S-02 is a very difficult tire to get back below 10 again. The release is sudden and requires a developed motor skill to correct which can only be had through experience. If you expect to rely on conscious decision making to put things right, you are already ass backward in the ditch. You can only develop that skill through experience. If you've never spun your car more than 3 or 4 times, you have no idea where the limit is so don't say you do.
Fact: If you are driving your S2000 on open public roads anywhere beyond 8/10 on any tire you are an idiot and get what you deserve, a ticket or worse. Last I checked reckless and aggressive driving is illegal in all 50 states and elsewhere.
The measure of the "limit" or 10/10 as some say is variable. It changes with road and weather conditions, visibility, traffic congestion, and so forth. We as drivers are responsible for knowing where that limit is at all times. It's also not about how fast the car can go, it's about how to get where you are going safely.
To summarize, the S-02 is not a dangerous tire nor is it a contributing factor in accidents. It is difficult for a novice to drive at 10/10 because it doesn't offer any noticeable warning that you've reached the end of the road and it doesn't give an inch until you get there. Other, less grippy, tires will offer a more warning because they lose traction gradually from 7 or 8/10ths on up depending on the tire. More novice drivers may wish to use a lesser tire to gain more warning when they have not developed the experience (through practice) to know instinctively how far they can push things. However, under normal driving the S-02 is no different than any other except perhaps in excessively wet or cold conditions when there may be more suitable choices.
Knowing what you can do safely is a judgement call. If you screw-up and misjudge a situation then you get what you get. We all screw-up and do idiotic things from time to time. We misjudge situations and make mistakes. Sometimes we don't know we've made a mistake until it's too late, hell sometimes we don't even realize we're making a judgement at all. But we cannot blame an inanimate object without any known defect for our own infalability. Dumping on the tire simply because you did something stupid just shows that you didn't learn the lesson you should have and that the whole exercise was for not.
Final thought: If you crash, suck it up and take it like a man.
The issue is this: Is the S-02 tire a contributing factor in accidents involving the S2000? Thus the answer must be no. We can all speculate about what the weakest link in the suspension is but that's not what is being discussed and I seriously doubt we could come to any meaningful conclusion without substantial measured testing. If you doubt my interpretation of the topic at hand, go back and read the first post.
Fact: The Bridgestone Potenza S-02 Honda OE tire is the best performing dry weather non-competition tire available for the S2000. What do I mean? Simply put, "10/10" on an OE S-02 is faster than on any other street tire. What happens at 11/10 is ugly but so it is with any other tire.
Fact: The warning you get that you are at or nearing the limit, "10/10", of the tire's traction capacity (given the current conditions) is almost non-existent on the S-02. They don't roll or squeal, they just grip like mad. Other tires are reported to offer some advance warning, perhaps at 9 or 9.5 or 10 that they can't take much more. The OE S-02 does not.
Fact: If you exceed 10/10 (given the current conditions) the S-02 is a very difficult tire to get back below 10 again. The release is sudden and requires a developed motor skill to correct which can only be had through experience. If you expect to rely on conscious decision making to put things right, you are already ass backward in the ditch. You can only develop that skill through experience. If you've never spun your car more than 3 or 4 times, you have no idea where the limit is so don't say you do.
Fact: If you are driving your S2000 on open public roads anywhere beyond 8/10 on any tire you are an idiot and get what you deserve, a ticket or worse. Last I checked reckless and aggressive driving is illegal in all 50 states and elsewhere.
The measure of the "limit" or 10/10 as some say is variable. It changes with road and weather conditions, visibility, traffic congestion, and so forth. We as drivers are responsible for knowing where that limit is at all times. It's also not about how fast the car can go, it's about how to get where you are going safely.
To summarize, the S-02 is not a dangerous tire nor is it a contributing factor in accidents. It is difficult for a novice to drive at 10/10 because it doesn't offer any noticeable warning that you've reached the end of the road and it doesn't give an inch until you get there. Other, less grippy, tires will offer a more warning because they lose traction gradually from 7 or 8/10ths on up depending on the tire. More novice drivers may wish to use a lesser tire to gain more warning when they have not developed the experience (through practice) to know instinctively how far they can push things. However, under normal driving the S-02 is no different than any other except perhaps in excessively wet or cold conditions when there may be more suitable choices.
Knowing what you can do safely is a judgement call. If you screw-up and misjudge a situation then you get what you get. We all screw-up and do idiotic things from time to time. We misjudge situations and make mistakes. Sometimes we don't know we've made a mistake until it's too late, hell sometimes we don't even realize we're making a judgement at all. But we cannot blame an inanimate object without any known defect for our own infalability. Dumping on the tire simply because you did something stupid just shows that you didn't learn the lesson you should have and that the whole exercise was for not.
Final thought: If you crash, suck it up and take it like a man.
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Joined: Jan 2001
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From: Laurel
So Jason --
Ever feel like you know something, and that what you know seems simple and reasonable, but that every time you try to explain it it becomes less and less likely to be understood or acknowledged?
Yea, been there. You just have to remind yourself that it took us almost a year to figure out that the top wasn't canvas even though all we'd have had to do is open our eyes and look closely...
Ever feel like you know something, and that what you know seems simple and reasonable, but that every time you try to explain it it becomes less and less likely to be understood or acknowledged?
Yea, been there. You just have to remind yourself that it took us almost a year to figure out that the top wasn't canvas even though all we'd have had to do is open our eyes and look closely...
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Joined: Nov 2001
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From: :spam:u
cthree,
I agree with most of what you posted except for one thing;
The S02s WILL provide a warning IF DRIVEN CORRECTLY.
For example, if you are the type of driver who enters a corner hot and the S02s stick, then if you enter that same corner hotter and hotter they will stick up to the point they don't and then they will break loose very quickly as you say without much warning.
BUT... if you enter a corner slower and ACCELERATE THROUGH faster and faster each time the S02s will start to howl and then the rears will start to drift in a very controlled fashion. You can practice this on a cloverleaf or abandoned parking lot. I suggest the stock 32 psi in the tires.
Slow in, fast out is the only way to drive this car on the street IMHO.
I agree with most of what you posted except for one thing;
The S02s WILL provide a warning IF DRIVEN CORRECTLY.
For example, if you are the type of driver who enters a corner hot and the S02s stick, then if you enter that same corner hotter and hotter they will stick up to the point they don't and then they will break loose very quickly as you say without much warning.
BUT... if you enter a corner slower and ACCELERATE THROUGH faster and faster each time the S02s will start to howl and then the rears will start to drift in a very controlled fashion. You can practice this on a cloverleaf or abandoned parking lot. I suggest the stock 32 psi in the tires.
Slow in, fast out is the only way to drive this car on the street IMHO.
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 4,467
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From: Davie, FL
Originally posted by jschmidt
So Jason --
Ever feel like you know something, and that what you know seems simple and reasonable, but that every time you try to explain it it becomes less and less likely to be understood or acknowledged?
Yea, been there. You just have to remind yourself that it took us almost a year to figure out that the top wasn't canvas even though all we'd have had to do is open our eyes and look closely...
So Jason --
Ever feel like you know something, and that what you know seems simple and reasonable, but that every time you try to explain it it becomes less and less likely to be understood or acknowledged?
Yea, been there. You just have to remind yourself that it took us almost a year to figure out that the top wasn't canvas even though all we'd have had to do is open our eyes and look closely...
) so let me take a stab at summarizing all of the interesting information in this thread.1) The original question was "Could it be the tires (S02) that's causing all these accidents??" I think the answer is a resounding NO. Unless a failure is involved, tires do not cause accidents. Several people discussed the characterisitcs of the OEM SO2 tire at the limit (10/10) with the consensus that the tires do not give as much warning as other tires with less grip before they start to slide. With practice (NOT on the street) one can learn the characterisitcs of these tires so that you are better prepared for unexpected situations on the street.
2) A follow up to JT-KBY's question asked "the I original post was trying to say that... Does the wet grip (or dry grip) characteristics of S02 change dramatically as the tires gets wear out a little.. ". jschmidt commented on how quickly the SO2s wear compared to most other tires (true), and that they don't give as much warning as other tires when they approach the limit (also true, IMO). These characteristics may contribute to losing the car at the limit, but as Strike previously summarized, one would be foolish to drive that aggressively on the street.
Thus, DRIVER ERROR is the proximate cause of loss of car control. The characterisitcs of the OEM SO2 tire may predispose people unaware of performance driving limitations to more easily exceed the traction limits of the OEM tire.
Additional helpful information concerning car control at the limit:
3) You are not being ignored Jason! You are obviously an excellent driver and would have more insight into the handling characterisitics of the S2000 than most of us. I read the article on bump steer - thanks for posting the link. But, I agree with cthree that bump steer is not the proximate CAUSE of these accidents. It is possible to hustle the S2000 around corners much faster than you might think as a novice when using the proper driving techniques. I'll restate cthree's point since I agree that incorrect technique is a much more important in these types of accidents than bump steer. Bump steer may exacerbate the situation once driver error has placed the car on the edge of adhesion - something you should NEVER do on the street.
I'm really happy that you posted the link, because now I can better understand why my car has oversteered on rough surfaces (NOT on the street), and continue to improve my driving skills.
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From: WA
in general I agree with all of you (cthree, jason, bieg, jschmidt and cedric).
cthree's main point is correct - it's NOT the S02's that are at fault - put any tire on the car - even the best rain tire - if you drive it beyond it's limits, you will get the same behaviour because of the inherent behaviour of a RWD, low polar moment of inertia, high powered car.
cthree's main point is correct - it's NOT the S02's that are at fault - put any tire on the car - even the best rain tire - if you drive it beyond it's limits, you will get the same behaviour because of the inherent behaviour of a RWD, low polar moment of inertia, high powered car.
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Joined: Oct 2000
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From: Sheridan
This is a great thread....as well as good advice TO ME to not drive near the limits on public roads and to get in line for a good driving school.
I agree absolutely with Jason Saini's main point that putting our heads in the sand and not looking at the car's contribution is silly. Just blaming "human error" doesn't consider the fact that some situations are more prone to human error than others.
In aircraft safety and in medicine, designing systems that EXPECT human error and then building in safeguards has resulted in lives saved. For example, when doctors prescribe digoxin for tiny babies with heart failure, a decimel point error can be the difference between effectively treating congestive heart failure and killing the baby. Good hospitals build in checks and balances so that the physician, the pharmacist and the nurse all check the dose. This is not theoretical. Babies have died from not taking this precaution.
If I could have bought my S2000 with a "Boxster handling option," I would have. From what I can tell by reading, the Boxster is more forgiving for inexperienced drivers and less fun for experienced drivers. It would fit me better than the S2000.
I did't consider the Boxster or any German car because there is no dealer close by. For me, no car is worth the hassle of driving 130 miles for warranty service.
For me, the S2000 is a fun toy that I want to enjoy for a long time. However, even though I grew up on rear wheel drive cars, the S2000 has more horsepower and torque than my '63 VW bus or my '74 Dodge Dart or my parents 1950s and 1960s Ford stationwagons. After fifteen years of Preludes, driving the S2000 is "just what the doctor ordered."
Concerning tire choice, I will stick with the OEM SO2 tires (for summer). This is because I can drive my Prelude any day the weather is less than perfect and these seem to be great perfect weather tires and because I want to keep THAT VARIABLE CONSTANT as I try to improve my own skill.
Jason, I DID read the bump steer thread. Thanks
I agree absolutely with Jason Saini's main point that putting our heads in the sand and not looking at the car's contribution is silly. Just blaming "human error" doesn't consider the fact that some situations are more prone to human error than others.
In aircraft safety and in medicine, designing systems that EXPECT human error and then building in safeguards has resulted in lives saved. For example, when doctors prescribe digoxin for tiny babies with heart failure, a decimel point error can be the difference between effectively treating congestive heart failure and killing the baby. Good hospitals build in checks and balances so that the physician, the pharmacist and the nurse all check the dose. This is not theoretical. Babies have died from not taking this precaution.
If I could have bought my S2000 with a "Boxster handling option," I would have. From what I can tell by reading, the Boxster is more forgiving for inexperienced drivers and less fun for experienced drivers. It would fit me better than the S2000.
I did't consider the Boxster or any German car because there is no dealer close by. For me, no car is worth the hassle of driving 130 miles for warranty service.
For me, the S2000 is a fun toy that I want to enjoy for a long time. However, even though I grew up on rear wheel drive cars, the S2000 has more horsepower and torque than my '63 VW bus or my '74 Dodge Dart or my parents 1950s and 1960s Ford stationwagons. After fifteen years of Preludes, driving the S2000 is "just what the doctor ordered."
Concerning tire choice, I will stick with the OEM SO2 tires (for summer). This is because I can drive my Prelude any day the weather is less than perfect and these seem to be great perfect weather tires and because I want to keep THAT VARIABLE CONSTANT as I try to improve my own skill.
Jason, I DID read the bump steer thread. Thanks