Jason,

I don't doubt you one bit that the S2000 has the bump steer issue as you have stated.

I just don't think that is why these guys have crashed. Yes it is one more thing for a novice to deal with but if they get it to the point where bump steer has PUT THEM OUT OF CONTROL on the street they have already screwed up by entering the corner way too hot.

The accidents happened because people ENTERED a corner too hot for conditions and they either lifted or hit the brakes. If they entered slower and shifted weight to the rear by accelerating smoothly through the corner they would have no problems (including bump steer) driving the S2000.

 

The most interesting point arising for me was cthree's assertion that the SO2 tyres don't squeal at all, losing grip very suddenly at their limit, or in fact just beyond it. Is this true?? The more I think about it, I don't recall hearing my tyres squeal at all. If this is so it would explain a lot of spin outs if we expect to hear a level of squeal prior to losing it!

I note Beig's assertion that the squeal can be induced by entering the bend slowly and progressively increasing acceleration, but it's fairly academic in every day driving I would think. I tried it on my way home this morning on a clear stretch of road with a sweeping bend and couldn't induce the squeal.

I recall seeing a video of Lips (Mark) drivng on The Dragon I think, where he had a fairly consistent and comfortable sounding level of tyre protest. Was this on SO2's, if so at what tyre pressures?

Mark?

 

Cedric,

I run mine 32 all around and driving as I stated before can hang the tail out and squeal the tires in a controlled and progressive manner.

Obviously there are different road compositions all over the world and what may squeal in New York might not somewhere else. Most roads in New York are Asphalt or concrete at whatever mixtures the Mafia uses.

Perhaps you don't have as much Jimmy Hoffa in the mixtures in your Country. There are plenty of "Squealers" in the roads of New York.

PS. I think New Jersey uses the same mix as we do.

 

i don't think you can blame a characteristic of the car (i.e. bumpsteer) for causing accidents - that's ridiculous.

it's like saying there is a design flaw in an SUV because the SUV flipped when the driver couldn't take a 90 degree turn at 40 mph.

if the same turn was taken at 10 mph - the SUV wouldn't have flipped.

generally, if every car behaved the same, we would all be driving the same car.

(excuse me if this is past discussion - i've been away from a computer for a couple of days)

 

LOL.. Well I know Hoffa was carrying a bit of weight, but it sounds like they managed to make him go a long way.

I suppose our most common surface is tarmac although we do have others, concrete being quite common. I run my tyres at 32 all round and find even small drops in pressure can have quite a pronounced effect on the stable feel of the car.

For my own part I've done motorway driving in torrential rain with no qualms whatsover. I'm happy with the SO2's although on cold surfaces with cold tyres there's a feeling that's hard to quantify which is probably felt through the cheeks of your arse, or between them ... which tells you to take it easy.

 

As I remember it, this was my experience too. I don't think they give a lot of butt feedback either. Hence the need to drive them with more safety margin than tires with more feedback (he says broken recordly...)

BTW, I've finally come to the realization that our opinions on this subject:

• say more about our world view than our driving ability
  
• make people afraid to be forthcoming about their accidents
  
• probably chase away some members
  
• prevent us from access to anecdotal data that would be helpful to all of us.

What say we all agree to go a little easier on those who wreck, listen with an open mind, be a little kinder, and not try to make this into an expression of our views about adventure vs. personal responsiblity.

Maybe all of us big mouths might learn something...

 

The only problem with these tires is they make everyone feel like Alex Zanardi. In the dry, they grip curves like the car is on rails. As speeds increase further, it becomes apparent that driving the S2000 requires some experience in driving knowledge to avoid trouble -- because the car's great potential can also bite back. Knowing this, take your time to learn the car. Don't overdrive and ignore the advice many have given; enjoy the challenge and be safe.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dlq04
[B]The only problem with these tires is they make everyone feel like Alex Zanardi.

 

About tyre-squeal - from my experience the better the tyre the less tyre-squeal you get ... I don't recall any of the 'better' tyres having squeal. Though, you can induce squeal by lowering your tyre pressures .... as some say 32psi should be enough to do that. I run mine at 37/35psi and you won't hear a 'peep' out of them.

Though, 'squealing' is not something I want from my tyres ... it is not what I concider a desired feedback. To me 'squealing' takes away my attention from what I should be paying attention to - ie. what my 'but' (ie. seat of the pants) is telling me. There's a lot of feedback from tyres that has nothing to do with the noise they make - that is the feedback I try and pay attention to.

What I like about the S02s over every other tyre that I've experienced is how they behave once they do lose grip. S02s are very progressive compared to other high-performance tyres (that I've experienced). A lot of other tyres 'snap' once you exceed the limits. Some even have a hard time regaining the grip back. S02s don't have that trait - they slide progressively and are more than happy to grip again as soon as you get them to their 'grip-point'. That is to me a very important part of how tyre behaves ... not just the ultimate grip or the feedback untill then.

 

Everyone certainly agrees on one thing... inexperienced drivers getting in over their heads are the cause of most of these accidents. I feel like a few more people are opening their eyes to bump-steer, and that is a good thing. If people *know* that their car might be unpredictable at the limit, they might drive with a little more caution.

In the end, that is my goal... to raise awareness of a potential issue that could get people in trouble in the hopes of averting maybe a disaster or two. I was never making excuses for anyone, nor blaming the car.

And re:S02's... they will sqeal when pushed. Cedric, I wish I had some video of some of my runs through the Dragon - in fact, ask Urmil. I took him on a very interesting ride! They also are not even close to a factor of these accidents. In the proper pressure range (I'd say anything from Bieg's 32 to David's 37) they are quite progressive. It's the *car*, not the tires that get unpredictable, especially over bumps. That's probably why there are so many different opinions about the handling of this car... because of the bump-steer. It will have a different personality for the road conditions. So people who drive on generally smooth roads probably think I'm smoking something. People who drive on bumpy roads probably understand what I'm talking about.

Also, lest anyone think that all this discussion was in vein... I came to a very important conclusion about our alignment setup from this past racing season which will help us considerably next season! So it was all worth it, and I thank everyone for your input.