Ethanol - gasoline mixture
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From: Longmont, CO
Granted, this source is an industry site and could be lying it's arse off in order to promote the product, but it does specifically say that "Research indicates Ford FFVs experience a 5% horsepower gain on E85."
I'd like to see independant corroborating evidence before I'll believe, but again, power loss is not a given.
http://e85fuel.com/e85101/faqs/range.php
I'd like to see independant corroborating evidence before I'll believe, but again, power loss is not a given.
http://e85fuel.com/e85101/faqs/range.php
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From: Milwaukee Area
I guess what confuses me is this.
Higher octane in and of itself doesn't give you more power. Higher octane merely means a greater resistance to heat/temp and detonation. It doesn't actually make any more power than lower octane gas.
Yet we do know that E85 makes LESS power than gasoline. It's basic chemistry, and any chemical engineer can chime in here and explain the intricacies of it.
That said, in order for an FFV vehicle to make MORE power with E85, it would have to have something happen inside the engine to not only make up for the loss of energy difference between E85 and regular gas, but then also make MORE power beyond that.
As you said, it's possible with higher compression and advancing the timing. However, no car in the world can tell what octane fuel it has. All it can detect is detonation. So if you have 87 in your tank and then switch to 105 octane E85, the car won't know the difference. Which means it also WONT advance the timing and compression isn't something that is changed on the fly as it requires parts to be physically replaced in the engine.
So where would the power increase come from?
The website you gave says this:
followed by this:
So how is that possible? You can't make something out of nothing, so the energy has to come from somewhere. IMO that's pretty sketchy info. (i realize you said that already though, i'm not saying you were implying otherwise)
Do you have any thoughts on where the extra power is coming from? IMO it's marketing and propoganda bs.
Higher octane in and of itself doesn't give you more power. Higher octane merely means a greater resistance to heat/temp and detonation. It doesn't actually make any more power than lower octane gas.
Yet we do know that E85 makes LESS power than gasoline. It's basic chemistry, and any chemical engineer can chime in here and explain the intricacies of it.
That said, in order for an FFV vehicle to make MORE power with E85, it would have to have something happen inside the engine to not only make up for the loss of energy difference between E85 and regular gas, but then also make MORE power beyond that.
As you said, it's possible with higher compression and advancing the timing. However, no car in the world can tell what octane fuel it has. All it can detect is detonation. So if you have 87 in your tank and then switch to 105 octane E85, the car won't know the difference. Which means it also WONT advance the timing and compression isn't something that is changed on the fly as it requires parts to be physically replaced in the engine.
So where would the power increase come from?
The website you gave says this:
Ethanol has less energy content than gasoline.
Research indicates Ford FFVs experience a 5% horsepower gain on E85.
Do you have any thoughts on where the extra power is coming from? IMO it's marketing and propoganda bs.
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From: Longmont, CO
Ah, but an FFV can detect which fuel is in the tank.
http://e85fuel.com/e85101/faqs/diffferences.php
Therefore, I suspect that as soon as you put E85 fuel in (or rather, the ECU measures the gasoline/ethanol ratio and presumably calculates octane) the ECU bumps up timing and does whatever else is appropriate, giving you that extra 5% power.
Also, while ethanol has less energy per unit volume (I don't know how much, but let's just say it's 15% less) that simply means you need to use 15% more fuel to extract a given amount of energy. Therefore, would it be possible to simply inject 15% more fuel into the combustion chambers and get the exact same amount of power as previously, without changing a single other thing on the enging? My guess is that a/f ratio won't be an issue because while a larger volume of fuel is going in, the actual combustion components maintain the proper ratio. So while the "miles per gallon" stat is reduced, the actual amount of energy production is maintained.
http://e85fuel.com/e85101/faqs/diffferences.php
There is only one major additional part that is included on an FFV - the fuel sensor that detects the ethanol/gasoline ratio.
Also, while ethanol has less energy per unit volume (I don't know how much, but let's just say it's 15% less) that simply means you need to use 15% more fuel to extract a given amount of energy. Therefore, would it be possible to simply inject 15% more fuel into the combustion chambers and get the exact same amount of power as previously, without changing a single other thing on the enging? My guess is that a/f ratio won't be an issue because while a larger volume of fuel is going in, the actual combustion components maintain the proper ratio. So while the "miles per gallon" stat is reduced, the actual amount of energy production is maintained.
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From: Milwaukee Area
Originally Posted by Elistan,Apr 19 2006, 10:15 AM
Ah, but an FFV can detect which fuel is in the tank.
http://e85fuel.com/e85101/faqs/diffferences.php
Therefore, I suspect that as soon as you put E85 fuel in (or rather, the ECU measures the gasoline/ethanol ratio and presumably calculates octane) the ECU bumps up timing and does whatever else is appropriate, giving you that extra 5% power.
Also, while ethanol has less energy per unit volume (I don't know how much, but let's just say it's 15% less) that simply means you need to use 15% more fuel to extract a given amount of energy. Therefore, would it be possible to simply inject 15% more fuel into the combustion chambers and get the exact same amount of power as previously, without changing a single other thing on the enging? My guess is that a/f ratio won't be an issue because while a larger volume of fuel is going in, the actual combustion components maintain the proper ratio. So while the "miles per gallon" stat is reduced, the actual amount of energy production is maintained.
http://e85fuel.com/e85101/faqs/diffferences.php
Therefore, I suspect that as soon as you put E85 fuel in (or rather, the ECU measures the gasoline/ethanol ratio and presumably calculates octane) the ECU bumps up timing and does whatever else is appropriate, giving you that extra 5% power.
Also, while ethanol has less energy per unit volume (I don't know how much, but let's just say it's 15% less) that simply means you need to use 15% more fuel to extract a given amount of energy. Therefore, would it be possible to simply inject 15% more fuel into the combustion chambers and get the exact same amount of power as previously, without changing a single other thing on the enging? My guess is that a/f ratio won't be an issue because while a larger volume of fuel is going in, the actual combustion components maintain the proper ratio. So while the "miles per gallon" stat is reduced, the actual amount of energy production is maintained.
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From: Jtown, Il
The lower heating value of Gas is about 44MJ/Kg and for Ethanol it is around 26.9MJ/kg. So one needs 1.636kg of Ethanol to match 1Kg of Gas (densities are close). Given that the A/F for complete combustion of fuel is 14.6 and 9.00 for ethanol, one would need about 14.6kg of air for Gas and 14.7kg of air for ethanol. So same amount of air but more fuel.
Given a choice I wouldn't want any ethanol in my gas.
Given a choice I wouldn't want any ethanol in my gas.
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From: Gie
Ah yes the fuel discussion...
Ethanol does have it's benefits. It maintains a colder combustion temperature than gasoline, making temperature management that much easier.
Methanol is the shit if you don't have any aluminum engine parts. It is very corrosive.
Ethanol does have it's benefits. It maintains a colder combustion temperature than gasoline, making temperature management that much easier.
Methanol is the shit if you don't have any aluminum engine parts. It is very corrosive.
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From: Jtown, Il
I forgot to post this link showing why I would not use it
http://science.howstuffworks.com/framed.ht...thanol.hrs.html
"The growers and processors can't afford to burn ethanol to make ethanol. U.S. drivers couldn't afford it, either, if it weren't for government subsidies to artificially lower the price."
The source below claims that there is a net gain in energy, but I believe they ignore certain costs as the Cornell study suggests.
http://www.ethanolfacts.com/quickfacts.html
http://science.howstuffworks.com/framed.ht...thanol.hrs.html
"The growers and processors can't afford to burn ethanol to make ethanol. U.S. drivers couldn't afford it, either, if it weren't for government subsidies to artificially lower the price."
The source below claims that there is a net gain in energy, but I believe they ignore certain costs as the Cornell study suggests.
http://www.ethanolfacts.com/quickfacts.html