*ahem* Yes, I know what a subsidy is.

I'm curious if NEODYMIUM happens to know who the subsidies are going TO. He suggests the farmers, and that they'll be getting rich from this. Is that true?

 

I don't really think anybody is getting rich, I do know that if there was no economic benefit to the ethanol producers, they wouldn't make it. Based on what I read, my opinion is that ethanol producers get petroleum cheaply and do not need to cover any environmental impact costs. Those are the subsidies, and let me be clear that I think they are going to ethanol producers and not necessarily the farmers.
In my earlier post I was speaking in general when I mentioned farmers

 

I'd like to know which group is the "farmers" in this context? I doubt that it is the Mom and Pop farmers struggling against Chapter 11. More likely, it is mega-scale agribusiness like ADM. I could see the support for E85, even with its dubious energy costs, if small farms were the beneficiary. I just don't believe that is the case.

 

Good point, Yflyer. I'm not really familiar with how the corn industry is set up. (I've always had the cynical suspicion they have quite a lobby effort going on, what with all the high fructose corn syrup in foods these days, although my understanding is that cane sugar can be just as cheap to produce but is less unhealthy.)

 

Earlier in this thread, the question of who beneifts form promotio of E85 -- small farms or agribuisness. The quote below is form the 02 May 06 New York Times. The answer is pretty clear.

"ADM's operating profit jumped 46 percent to $549 million during the quarter. Profit from oilseeds -- which include soybean processing and processing of seeds such as rapeseed and cottonseed into vegetable oil -- increased $116 million to $177 million, thanks to improved market conditions across the globe, the company said.

''Oilseed processing results improved in all regions of the world,'' said Brian Peterson, senior vice president for corporate affairs. ''Harvest is under way in South America and a record soybean crop is expected. Also planting intentions in North America call for an increase in soybean planting. All indications point to an excellent supply of soybeans for our global operations.''

Operating profit in the corn processing division, which includes the manufacturing of ethanol, increased $41 million, or 23 percent, to $219 million for the quarter. The company also cited improved selling prices for corn starch and sweetener.

''We believe we are in a period of new demand for products made from the corn wet milling starch stream as we find opportunities to replace products derived from high-priced petroleum,'' Peterson said. ''The strong demand should lead to improved long term returns from corn processing operations.''

ADM, based in Decatur, Ill., is among the biggest processors of soybeans, corn, wheat and cocoa and produces soy meal and oil, biodiesel, ethanol, corn sweeteners and flour, with more than 250 processing plants and more than 26,000 employees worldwide."

 

I think with some kind of fuel tuning, there would be no issues running e85 on an s2000.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuOs1yap8mU


And there is definitly no issue with making power on e85.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-klh...eature=related

 

the same is pretty much true for the "electric" car. sure you don't get the tailpipe emissions... from the car. but just where do the environmentalists believe the electricity that charges the car comes from? that's right, from your environmentally friendly coal fired power plant

However, that said Honda's fuel cell concept is pretty interesting, whereby they supply you with a device to convert your home's natural gas supply to hydrogen to fill the car. And there are a couple of operating plants, with more in the works, that can create pipeline quality synthetic natural gas from coal through a pretty much emission free process. Given the enormous coal reserves in the US, this may well be America's answer to Brazil's ethanol.

 

Except that the alcohol will tend to dissolve parts of the fuel system, if the car's not designed for it. There's a reason rubbing alcohol is used as a cleaning agent...

 

ethanol

 

Pennsylvania has 10% ethanol