Expensive Gas - Does the s2000 HAVE to have it?
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Originally Posted by blkwidow,Jun 19 2008, 11:08 AM
You do realize this thread is almost 3years old right?
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From: Land of Cincinnati Chili
Well, his post is just as whacked as some of the earlier ones. Of course it made no difference in the Civic. Not only that but what the hell does "had regular in the TSX for 60K and had no problems" really mean. It means no problems that he is aware of yet (of course this 60K miles accounts for only about 25% of the life of a typical Honda. Most of us here are "enthusiasts". That would mean that we like to take reasonable care of our cars. That is how you see 250,000 miles.
[disclaimer: I'm not a certified automobile mechanic or an expert in S2000s but I do think that I have enough technical expertise to understand the dynamics of what goes on here]
Here is what happens in "my" layman's terms:
You apply load by mashing the throttle.
The octane rating of the fuel is low enough that it causes the charge in the cylinder to either fire early or erratically.
This causes a shock to your engine since the timing of the cylinder firing is off -- the piston rattles in the cylinder, the crank, connecting rods and associated pins are stressed due the the mistimed power pulse, and the valves are somewhat in the wrong position. (This is the obvious knocking sound you hear on a car without a knock sensor.)
On a car with a knock sensor like the S2000, this noise is "heard" by the sensor and the ECU changes the timing to stop the knock. If it still knocks, the ECU changes the timing further and on and on until the knock is silenced.
During this period your engine is running inefficiently and you are down on power.
There is no such thing as an octane sensor so the car starts to return the timing to the normal setting. All is fine till the knock starts again and the process repeats.
According to many respected and knowledgeable members of this site (far more S2000 knowledgeable than I) even when the car is running on 91 octane, there is a small amount of timing correction from time to time depending upon the loads on the engine, throttle position, temperature, etc. It's just that this is infrequent enough to not cause any problems with the engine long term.
The problem arises when you habitually run low octane fuel in the car. The car continuously cycles between knocking and inefficient operation. How bad is this for the car? Hell if I know but it certainly can't be good when done long term and continuously.
The Honda Owner's Manual states that you "can" use low octane fuel in a pinch if high octane fuel is unavailable and you need fuel. Of course the assumption is that you are going to drive reasonably conservatively and will return to the proper fuel when available. The manual also states a recommendation of minimum 91 octane (R+M/2 method) for the North American market. Can you get away with a little less at high altitude? I suspect so.
What I find interesting is the fact that someone would knowingly buy a vehicle that requires premium fuel in a market that commands nearly 50 cents per gallon more for the stuff and then not use it because it is expensive.
:steps off soap box:
[disclaimer: I'm not a certified automobile mechanic or an expert in S2000s but I do think that I have enough technical expertise to understand the dynamics of what goes on here]
Here is what happens in "my" layman's terms:
You apply load by mashing the throttle.
The octane rating of the fuel is low enough that it causes the charge in the cylinder to either fire early or erratically.
This causes a shock to your engine since the timing of the cylinder firing is off -- the piston rattles in the cylinder, the crank, connecting rods and associated pins are stressed due the the mistimed power pulse, and the valves are somewhat in the wrong position. (This is the obvious knocking sound you hear on a car without a knock sensor.)
On a car with a knock sensor like the S2000, this noise is "heard" by the sensor and the ECU changes the timing to stop the knock. If it still knocks, the ECU changes the timing further and on and on until the knock is silenced.
During this period your engine is running inefficiently and you are down on power.
There is no such thing as an octane sensor so the car starts to return the timing to the normal setting. All is fine till the knock starts again and the process repeats.
According to many respected and knowledgeable members of this site (far more S2000 knowledgeable than I) even when the car is running on 91 octane, there is a small amount of timing correction from time to time depending upon the loads on the engine, throttle position, temperature, etc. It's just that this is infrequent enough to not cause any problems with the engine long term.
The problem arises when you habitually run low octane fuel in the car. The car continuously cycles between knocking and inefficient operation. How bad is this for the car? Hell if I know but it certainly can't be good when done long term and continuously.
The Honda Owner's Manual states that you "can" use low octane fuel in a pinch if high octane fuel is unavailable and you need fuel. Of course the assumption is that you are going to drive reasonably conservatively and will return to the proper fuel when available. The manual also states a recommendation of minimum 91 octane (R+M/2 method) for the North American market. Can you get away with a little less at high altitude? I suspect so.
What I find interesting is the fact that someone would knowingly buy a vehicle that requires premium fuel in a market that commands nearly 50 cents per gallon more for the stuff and then not use it because it is expensive.
:steps off soap box:
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From: Paradise Hills / SD
Originally Posted by clay123,Jun 19 2008, 02:57 PM
So you're saying he's a dumbass for posting in a 3 year old thread.... but if he would created a new thread we would hear the exact same pissing and moaning all over again...
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Wow, why does this boneheaded question always come up?
Every auto maker provides an owners manual that encompasses recommendations for fuel and fluids. If you've made the investment in any decent car, why wouldn't you just follow these recommendations?
The S2000 is a very high compression engine for a street car by today's standards. And as several people have already noted a modern ECU can alter timing over a limited range to compensate for poor fuel.
Will a couple of tankfuls of low octane gas destroy an F22C? Probably not. But prolonged use may shorten the life of the engine or lead to expensive repairs.
Will performance suffer? Yes, to some degree.
Will you save much money? Well at $4.00 per gallon for 87 octane and $4.30 for 93 octane, that's about 7.0% savings. So, say you drive 12,000 miles annually and the S averages 20 mpg. You'd need to buy 600 gallons of fuel. At $4.30, thats $2,580. A 7.0% savings would net you about $181. That's about 15 bucks per month. Whooopeee!
Would you trade even a little performance or risk any damage or premature wear to any engine for that kind of money?
Then ride a bike! I suggest Schwinn!
As for you wannabe snobs who think the S2000 is some rare and exclusive thoroughbred that requires only the best that money can buy, you're hilarious!
This car is pretty cheap for a performance car in absolute terms and a bargain when you look at the total cost of ownership for the performance you get. At 20-25 mpg, it's very reasonable on fuel. And if you think your local Honda store is charging you a premium to maintain this exotic beast, wander over to the nearby Porsche emporium and find out what expensive maintenance really is.
Every auto maker provides an owners manual that encompasses recommendations for fuel and fluids. If you've made the investment in any decent car, why wouldn't you just follow these recommendations?
The S2000 is a very high compression engine for a street car by today's standards. And as several people have already noted a modern ECU can alter timing over a limited range to compensate for poor fuel.
Will a couple of tankfuls of low octane gas destroy an F22C? Probably not. But prolonged use may shorten the life of the engine or lead to expensive repairs.
Will performance suffer? Yes, to some degree.
Will you save much money? Well at $4.00 per gallon for 87 octane and $4.30 for 93 octane, that's about 7.0% savings. So, say you drive 12,000 miles annually and the S averages 20 mpg. You'd need to buy 600 gallons of fuel. At $4.30, thats $2,580. A 7.0% savings would net you about $181. That's about 15 bucks per month. Whooopeee!
Would you trade even a little performance or risk any damage or premature wear to any engine for that kind of money?
Then ride a bike! I suggest Schwinn!
As for you wannabe snobs who think the S2000 is some rare and exclusive thoroughbred that requires only the best that money can buy, you're hilarious!
This car is pretty cheap for a performance car in absolute terms and a bargain when you look at the total cost of ownership for the performance you get. At 20-25 mpg, it's very reasonable on fuel. And if you think your local Honda store is charging you a premium to maintain this exotic beast, wander over to the nearby Porsche emporium and find out what expensive maintenance really is.
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Originally Posted by SenderGreen,Nov 7 2005, 08:50 PM
Unocal has 100 octane (unleaded) at some pumps in California. It's about $5.00 a gallon.
I was going to put more wax on my car to reduce air friction to get better gas mileage, but then I thought the extra weight would offset the gain.
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From: Northern Virginia
Originally Posted by 530s2k,Nov 7 2005, 09:17 PM
That's the highest we get in the state of California, so yeah. (Aside from the local station that sells 98 unleaded for like $5 a gallon)
98 at 5 bucks
now its 87 at close to 5 bucks........
