F-Series and i-VTEC
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From: Milwaukee Area
Originally Posted by '05 S2K SBM,Oct 30 2005, 05:50 PM
That's just it--it shouldn't take a lot of money to make the F-series faster than the K-series. Dollar for dollar an F-series engine should out-perform a K-series. Since we know that isn't the case, I think Honda made a mistake by producing the K-series engine which is a lot more tuner friendly than the F-series.
If I used your logic, then oh, honda made a mistake by making the RSX because the S2000 is a lot sportier and better handling than the RSX.
you're looking at 2 different engine developed for 2 different purposes. The F20C also came BEFORE i-Vtec technology existed. But then you say they made a mistake by making the K-series more tuner friendly than the F-series.
So honda should stop improving technology and coming out with newer engines just because the F20C is in the S2000? Why would they do that?
Is the K20 more cost effective for tuners? Yes. Does that means it's a better engine for the S2000? No. The S2000 was not designed nor directed at the tuner crowd looking to modify an engine in a cost effective way. It was built for purists and lovers of the sports car who wanted a high revving, tossable roadster, with incredible handling. The RSX was not built for this purpose.
So that said, you're talking apples and tomatoes. The S2000 engine has many things that are unique and better than the RSX engine, even if it doens't have the cheap modability of the K-series. For what it was designed for, the F-series performs much better than the K-series.
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From: Franklin TN
Not questioning the assertaitons of Wisconsin, but looking for more information.
It seems that it is relatively easy to turn the K series into a firebreathing monster that will run to 10k+, but you rarely see an F20c that can do that. I think I've seen or heard of two such engines (making over 300hp NA), both for race cars and requiring frequent rebuilds.
What sort of power levels are easily attainable by the F20c? It seems that no bolt on mods make much power, you'd be lucky to get to 240whp with the regular intake/header/exhaust/vafc combo, but the K series guys are making a LOT of power over stock with similar mods.
Also, it seems that cams on the K series are a big improvement, but from my reading, it seems the F20c doesn't take well to any of the aftermarket cams...
I agree the F20c is an engineering marvel, for it's time. Whether it has stood the test of time and still is as good or better than current offerings is what I'm questioning. It does seem to me that the K series has more potential, but I'd like to know for sure.
It seems that it is relatively easy to turn the K series into a firebreathing monster that will run to 10k+, but you rarely see an F20c that can do that. I think I've seen or heard of two such engines (making over 300hp NA), both for race cars and requiring frequent rebuilds.
What sort of power levels are easily attainable by the F20c? It seems that no bolt on mods make much power, you'd be lucky to get to 240whp with the regular intake/header/exhaust/vafc combo, but the K series guys are making a LOT of power over stock with similar mods.
Also, it seems that cams on the K series are a big improvement, but from my reading, it seems the F20c doesn't take well to any of the aftermarket cams...
I agree the F20c is an engineering marvel, for it's time. Whether it has stood the test of time and still is as good or better than current offerings is what I'm questioning. It does seem to me that the K series has more potential, but I'd like to know for sure.
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Originally Posted by Wisconsin S2k,Oct 30 2005, 05:15 PM
You're not really understanding what's going on here.
If I used your logic, then oh, honda made a mistake by making the RSX because the S2000 is a lot sportier and better handling than the RSX.
you're looking at 2 different engine developed for 2 different purposes. The F20C also came BEFORE i-Vtec technology existed. But then you say they made a mistake by making the K-series more tuner friendly than the F-series.
So honda should stop improving technology and coming out with newer engines just because the F20C is in the S2000? Why would they do that?
Is the K20 more cost effective for tuners? Yes. Does that means it's a better engine for the S2000? No. The S2000 was not designed nor directed at the tuner crowd looking to modify an engine in a cost effective way. It was built for purists and lovers of the sports car who wanted a high revving, tossable roadster, with incredible handling. The RSX was not built for this purpose.
So that said, you're talking apples and tomatoes. The S2000 engine has many things that are unique and better than the RSX engine, even if it doens't have the cheap modability of the K-series. For what it was designed for, the F-series performs much better than the K-series.
If I used your logic, then oh, honda made a mistake by making the RSX because the S2000 is a lot sportier and better handling than the RSX.
you're looking at 2 different engine developed for 2 different purposes. The F20C also came BEFORE i-Vtec technology existed. But then you say they made a mistake by making the K-series more tuner friendly than the F-series.
So honda should stop improving technology and coming out with newer engines just because the F20C is in the S2000? Why would they do that?
Is the K20 more cost effective for tuners? Yes. Does that means it's a better engine for the S2000? No. The S2000 was not designed nor directed at the tuner crowd looking to modify an engine in a cost effective way. It was built for purists and lovers of the sports car who wanted a high revving, tossable roadster, with incredible handling. The RSX was not built for this purpose.
So that said, you're talking apples and tomatoes. The S2000 engine has many things that are unique and better than the RSX engine, even if it doens't have the cheap modability of the K-series. For what it was designed for, the F-series performs much better than the K-series.
All I am trying to say is that the S2K, aside from the NSX, is supposed to by Honda's flagship. It took over the "reigns" from the Prelude. To me that means the car is supposed to be far superior, in every aspect, from other cars made by Honda (again, NSX aside).
I am disappointed by the fact that, for about $1500 less, you can S/C a RSX-S and put down similar numbers to the S. All other mods aside, a S/C S2K should make more power than a S/C RSX-S, and that simply isn't the case.
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Originally Posted by brent_strong,Oct 30 2005, 05:46 PM
It seems that no bolt on mods make much power, you'd be lucky to get to 240whp with the regular intake/header/exhaust/vafc combo, but the K series guys are making a LOT of power over stock with similar mods.
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From: Vienna, VA
also don't forget that K20A2 dynos are not directly comparable to F20C dynos as FWD has significantly less drivetrain loss. In other words, 200HP on a F20C is a good bit more than 200HP from a K20A in regards to true engine power.
also, I do believe a lot of these K series super-marvels you read about are fabrications or exaggerations. A lot of this goes on in Honda-tuning land and it makes all of us lose credibility.
also, I do believe a lot of these K series super-marvels you read about are fabrications or exaggerations. A lot of this goes on in Honda-tuning land and it makes all of us lose credibility.
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From: Pacific Palisades
Originally Posted by Wisconsin S2k,Oct 30 2005, 05:15 PM
You're not really understanding what's going on here.
If I used your logic, then oh, honda made a mistake by making the RSX because the S2000 is a lot sportier and better handling than the RSX.
you're looking at 2 different engine developed for 2 different purposes. The F20C also came BEFORE i-Vtec technology existed. But then you say they made a mistake by making the K-series more tuner friendly than the F-series.
So honda should stop improving technology and coming out with newer engines just because the F20C is in the S2000? Why would they do that?
Is the K20 more cost effective for tuners? Yes. Does that means it's a better engine for the S2000? No. The S2000 was not designed nor directed at the tuner crowd looking to modify an engine in a cost effective way. It was built for purists and lovers of the sports car who wanted a high revving, tossable roadster, with incredible handling. The RSX was not built for this purpose.
So that said, you're talking apples and tomatoes. The S2000 engine has many things that are unique and better than the RSX engine, even if it doens't have the cheap modability of the K-series. For what it was designed for, the F-series performs much better than the K-series.
If I used your logic, then oh, honda made a mistake by making the RSX because the S2000 is a lot sportier and better handling than the RSX.
you're looking at 2 different engine developed for 2 different purposes. The F20C also came BEFORE i-Vtec technology existed. But then you say they made a mistake by making the K-series more tuner friendly than the F-series.
So honda should stop improving technology and coming out with newer engines just because the F20C is in the S2000? Why would they do that?
Is the K20 more cost effective for tuners? Yes. Does that means it's a better engine for the S2000? No. The S2000 was not designed nor directed at the tuner crowd looking to modify an engine in a cost effective way. It was built for purists and lovers of the sports car who wanted a high revving, tossable roadster, with incredible handling. The RSX was not built for this purpose.
So that said, you're talking apples and tomatoes. The S2000 engine has many things that are unique and better than the RSX engine, even if it doens't have the cheap modability of the K-series. For what it was designed for, the F-series performs much better than the K-series.
