I'll just follow up a bit on the comments from Marj. Just so we all know who is who around here, it may be useful to know that I am also a corporate transactional attorney and draft waivers and consents on a fairly regular basis.

That being said, I am friendly with some fairly successful plaintiff's attorneys. I agree with Marj that many waivers are valid, however, I tend to believe that those waivers that are negotiated tend to be upheld more often that those form waivers that a person is told to sign and quite often does not read. My point here is that, with any waiver, the argument is going to be that "whatever happened was outside the scope of the waiver." So the normal reaction here is to make the waiver as broad as possible. The result? A waiver that is unenforceable on public policy grounds (e.g. the waiver that states you waive your right to sue).

I think the notion of waivers is a good idea and you should use them. However, the waivers are typically only a hurdle in a successful lawsuit, not an impenatrable barrier.

Again, I think that Marj and I agree on this subject, we just took two different routes in coming to the same conclusion.

While I am certainly not pitching my firm's services, if s2kca is looking for a firm to review and/or draft things for them, I would be happy to talk to them about it. Please be aware that I work for a very large firm and, as an associate, would have to clear the client relationship with the partners. Additionally, our work is not inexpensive, my hourly rate is something @ $230/hr. That being said, I am confident that you could find a more reasonably priced attorney who is perfectly capable of helping you out. Please let me know if I can be helpful.

 

With all this talk about drafting a waiver, I should point out that K&K Insurance already provides waivers that the club can use. I expect they were used at Laguna although I can't be sure since I wasn't there.

K&K Insurance has (I would expect) many lawyers on staff and a significant amount of practical experience that they have brought together into their waiver. They make a living of insuring high risk activities. While nothing is absolute when talking about lawyers (sorry, but it's true), I expect that it's the best that can be done in today's legal climate.

I've read the ones we use for autox and it's pretty clear what is and is not covered, what risks each party assumes, etc. Let's not reinvent the wheel if we don't have to.

 

I just spoke with S2KCA's insurance carrier. Their take on it is that anything that can be considered an organized event could be covered under the policy for members.

They indicated that a couple of guys phoning around to go on a drive probably wouldn't qualify as an event, but something that is posted on a message board a week or two in advance would be considered an organized event.

She agreed the line of organized vs spontaneous is somewhat grey.

Itsjustme - we have waivers from K&K as solo2racer has pointed out (although we really don't have any since my fire - need to reorder).

 

No sweat, just thought I would offer. Since your insurance company drafts the waivers, I am sure that they would not take another form anyway. Beware however, that those waivers are going to be drafted to protect the insurance company from paying, not to protect the economics of the club and its members.

Happy driving.

 

Threre was a question about what happens if the person behind you strikes your car, and you have signed the waiver. The answer depends on how the waiver is drafted.

Seems to me like this has been a productive discussion of some of the issues. If the organization has a waiver, and it is good, then wonderful.

As to "Its Just Me", we need to find something to disagree about, or they wont believe we are "real lawyers".

And, to all best wishes for a safe and fun year with your S2000s

Greg
The passenger in Marj' S2000

 

As has been pointed out - you can draft waivers until you are blue in the face and if someone wants to sue you bad enough - they will.

The other good thing about our policy is its Duty to Defend clause. If you are sued, the insurance company has to foot the bill for your defense. This is most helpful in the Non-profit world as there are lots of suits against these organizations without much merit.

 

I think there are two important questions here that haven't been answered:

1) what (in detail) does a person have to do to get an event covered by the S2KCA liability insurance.

2) what exactly does the waiver say; would it be possible to post the text of the waiver here?

Thanks,

Ted

 

I too would like to know the answer to Tedsters questions.

 

As an enthusiast and future event participant, it is important to me to know what the waiver says BEFORE I drive for 9 hours to an event and committ to hotel and other expenses!!

It's also VERY important to me that I not be asked to waive my right to persue recovery of damages against anyone who has acted in a negligent amd/or reckless manner. Why should I agree to do that?!

These are serious issues that require solid answers, policy, and proceedures. All participants deserve to know the contents of any waivers well beforehand!

I applaud S2KCA's proactive position on this and am confident that they will tighten up their position appropriately.