How much abuse can this engine take?
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From: Hoover, AL
2quik4u - I strongly disagree with your statement. When I look at my dyno plot, the power curve flattens at 8300RPM. However, to get the most out of this motor, it needs to be revved as far as it will go. The quickest 1/4 mile times I've posted have been from shifting at the very last instant before I hit the limiter. One of my friends has been building F20c motors for 4 years. He was able to get 1000 crank horsepower out of an F20c in his CRX drag car. His advice to me was "Run this motor as high as you can in the RPMs before you shift. It responds the best to shifting as close as humanly possible to the rev limiter." I think I will take somebody's advice with 4 years of experience building these motors. You can go ahead and shift at 8300, but your times at the track will suffer greatly because of it.
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though it's reliable as u guys said it , how do u check for valve-spring cracks or retainer cracks , do u guys always open up your head to check it or is there any tell-tale signs?
i brought it to track the first time and was hesitant to always go to 9k all the way , sometimes just 7k then shift. ( i love the car too much i know)
i brought it to track the first time and was hesitant to always go to 9k all the way , sometimes just 7k then shift. ( i love the car too much i know)
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From: Raleigh, NC
Originally Posted by 2quik4u,Jun 16 2007, 10:10 PM
Shifting at 8.3k is the position for max HP. No need to shoot to 9k. Trust me, your car will last longer!
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From: Pasadena, SOCAL
Originally Posted by YellowStarS2k,Jun 17 2007, 07:47 AM
I'm not sure about the F20C, but I'd imagine it would be similar. The K20A was run, I believe, for 3 weeks straight at max rpm stopping only for oil changes, and the motor still did not have abnormal wear and tear.
actually one of the longest load test i know of is done by ford's diesel truck motor.
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From: Pasadena, SOCAL
Originally Posted by QUIKAG,Jun 17 2007, 08:48 AM
If you knew how many thousands of times I've hit redline in those 25k miles and the motor still doesn't burn A DROP of oil, even with 7,500 miles synthetic changes, you should still be impressed.
The motor just feels unstressed at ANY rpm level including bouncing off the 8,200rpm rev limiter.
The motor just feels unstressed at ANY rpm level including bouncing off the 8,200rpm rev limiter.
my car pulled a near/perfect compression at 100k, it was within 3percent of a 06 motor that i happend to did a compression test on. the Leakdown was a similar story.
it's a good motor, if you take care of it.(i put valvoline maxlife and new filter every 3k)
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From: LittlecountrynamedBelgium
Originally Posted by J's_Racer,Jun 17 2007, 07:25 PM
i brought it to track the first time and was hesitant to always go to 9k all the way , sometimes just 7k then shift. ( i love the car too much i know)
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From: Warsaw, Poland
I was an intern at Borg-Warner a bunch of years ago, and they brought in an S2000 engine to test. I guess they were figuring out how to make timing chains/ tensioners for it.
Anyway, when I was there they had they thing ripping at redline/ WOT for 24 hours straight. I guess Honda told them that after around ~350 hours one of the rockers will finally fail from fatigue.
350 hours. That's two weeks of maximum stress conditions. It is why I bought this car and it is why I WILL redline it any opportunity I get, be it when I'm stuck in traffic, or cruising on the highway. I will drop down a couple gears just to hear the thing sing. And I do not hold back one ounce. If I would, I would not have bought the car.
Anyways, the way these engines operate, it not so much an issue of how many miles they last, but how many times they're been started/ stopped. That's when most of the wear occurs. Once it's spinning, there's practically no metal-metal contact.
Anyway, when I was there they had they thing ripping at redline/ WOT for 24 hours straight. I guess Honda told them that after around ~350 hours one of the rockers will finally fail from fatigue.
350 hours. That's two weeks of maximum stress conditions. It is why I bought this car and it is why I WILL redline it any opportunity I get, be it when I'm stuck in traffic, or cruising on the highway. I will drop down a couple gears just to hear the thing sing. And I do not hold back one ounce. If I would, I would not have bought the car.
Anyways, the way these engines operate, it not so much an issue of how many miles they last, but how many times they're been started/ stopped. That's when most of the wear occurs. Once it's spinning, there's practically no metal-metal contact.
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From: Dry Branch
Lsos is correct. Most wear takes place during startup.
You don't have to pull the head to check the retainers. All you have to do is pull the cam cover, which only takes a few minutes. There is no need to check the retainers unless there is a posibilty of a mechanical over rev (as with a new car, or when you miss a shift and over rev the engine).
[QUOTE=dyhppy,Jun 17 2007, 08:50 AM]it's ok to hit the revlimiter constantly despite what it feels like.
Originally Posted by J's_Racer,Jun 17 2007, 01:25 PM
though it's reliable as u guys said it , how do u check for valve-spring cracks or retainer cracks , do u guys always open up your head to check it or is there any tell-tale signs?
i brought it to track the first time and was hesitant to always go to 9k all the way , sometimes just 7k then shift. ( i love the car too much i know)
i brought it to track the first time and was hesitant to always go to 9k all the way , sometimes just 7k then shift. ( i love the car too much i know)
[QUOTE=dyhppy,Jun 17 2007, 08:50 AM]it's ok to hit the revlimiter constantly despite what it feels like.
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From: BayArea
Originally Posted by RED MX5,Jun 18 2007, 12:15 PM
Lsos is correct. Most wear takes place during startup.
You don't have to pull the head to check the retainers. All you have to do is pull the cam cover, which only takes a few minutes. There is no need to check the retainers unless there is a posibilty of a mechanical over rev (as with a new car, or when you miss a shift and over rev the engine).
It's just too bad that so few S2000 owners have never had a chance to own and/or drive a car with a high reving engine sans VTEC. The old Fiat engines used in cars like the X-1/9 easily turned 9k on the stock internals, and would actually spin to 9k with the stock camshafts; Of course power started falling off before the factory redline (which was really just a shift point and obviously not a do not exceed speed), so it didn't make sense to rev a stock car beyond the redline unless it was one of those situations where you were about to enter a turn and would lose more time shifting than not. Stock X-1/9's frequently saw engine speeds 1-2k above redline during autocrosses. With a cam change and a little head work peak power could be moved up to 8,800 RPM, which when combined with lower final drive could give the little car surprising acceleration (especially considering the cars weight and minimal displacement). However, the engine did not have VTEC, and at lower revs the car was totally undrivable. Letting the engine drop below 4k was a no-no, and it really didn't put out enough torque to pull well below about 5.5k. BUT, as long as you kept the engine between 7k and 9k (the gear spacing was short enough to allow this) the car was a blast. This is what many people call an "inertia car," because once you're in the powerband you have to keep the speed and revs up to avoid dropping out of the power band. VTEC is like being able to switch back to the stock cam profile at lower engine speeds, allowing an engine that is designed to make peak power at high revs to perform quite well at lower engine speeds. There is nothing new about high revs or 9k, and the F20C is designed to make power over the range of 6k-9k. It just happens to have a little technology that allows it to change cam profiles when you run it at lower speeds, so the high speed engine is managable, and even nice, when you drive the car like a base Civic.
The engine is a screamer, from the ground up, but it has VTEC to make it livable at low revs. This allows people who don't like screamers to drive the car like any other 2000cc I-4 roadster, and there is nothing wrong with that. It just means that we will always have people in the S2000 community who don't see the S2000 as the screamer it really is, and they'll always believe that we're hurting the car when we use the performance it is designed to deliver. It's easy for the guys who do drive the car hard to think that the guys who don't are missing the best the car has to offer, but one of the cool things about the S2000 is that it has the flexability to offer completely different things to different people. There is no "right way" to drive the car. There are probably an infinite number of "wrong ways" to drive any car, and the S2000 can be a little demanding, but it's just as happy and healthy rowing through traffic and being shifted at 4k-4.5k as it is being repeatedly run to redline on a track or autocross course.
Startup, and short trips that never let the car warm up fully will always produce more wear than running the engine to redline.
You don't have to pull the head to check the retainers. All you have to do is pull the cam cover, which only takes a few minutes. There is no need to check the retainers unless there is a posibilty of a mechanical over rev (as with a new car, or when you miss a shift and over rev the engine).
It's just too bad that so few S2000 owners have never had a chance to own and/or drive a car with a high reving engine sans VTEC. The old Fiat engines used in cars like the X-1/9 easily turned 9k on the stock internals, and would actually spin to 9k with the stock camshafts; Of course power started falling off before the factory redline (which was really just a shift point and obviously not a do not exceed speed), so it didn't make sense to rev a stock car beyond the redline unless it was one of those situations where you were about to enter a turn and would lose more time shifting than not. Stock X-1/9's frequently saw engine speeds 1-2k above redline during autocrosses. With a cam change and a little head work peak power could be moved up to 8,800 RPM, which when combined with lower final drive could give the little car surprising acceleration (especially considering the cars weight and minimal displacement). However, the engine did not have VTEC, and at lower revs the car was totally undrivable. Letting the engine drop below 4k was a no-no, and it really didn't put out enough torque to pull well below about 5.5k. BUT, as long as you kept the engine between 7k and 9k (the gear spacing was short enough to allow this) the car was a blast. This is what many people call an "inertia car," because once you're in the powerband you have to keep the speed and revs up to avoid dropping out of the power band. VTEC is like being able to switch back to the stock cam profile at lower engine speeds, allowing an engine that is designed to make peak power at high revs to perform quite well at lower engine speeds. There is nothing new about high revs or 9k, and the F20C is designed to make power over the range of 6k-9k. It just happens to have a little technology that allows it to change cam profiles when you run it at lower speeds, so the high speed engine is managable, and even nice, when you drive the car like a base Civic.
The engine is a screamer, from the ground up, but it has VTEC to make it livable at low revs. This allows people who don't like screamers to drive the car like any other 2000cc I-4 roadster, and there is nothing wrong with that. It just means that we will always have people in the S2000 community who don't see the S2000 as the screamer it really is, and they'll always believe that we're hurting the car when we use the performance it is designed to deliver. It's easy for the guys who do drive the car hard to think that the guys who don't are missing the best the car has to offer, but one of the cool things about the S2000 is that it has the flexability to offer completely different things to different people. There is no "right way" to drive the car. There are probably an infinite number of "wrong ways" to drive any car, and the S2000 can be a little demanding, but it's just as happy and healthy rowing through traffic and being shifted at 4k-4.5k as it is being repeatedly run to redline on a track or autocross course.
Startup, and short trips that never let the car warm up fully will always produce more wear than running the engine to redline.
