To start off with, the reason why I have started this thread is that many tuning houses - including mugen and spoon have developed 1 set of headers and exhausts (not including the 2nd exhaust that mugen has for the ss2200 style rear bumper) - which I shall refer to as "Systems"

However, even though they only have one type of System - they have other applications such as stroker kit (not for sale), cams (spoon), ecu changes - and different markets.

Now, back to basics, the way such Systems work is to be of such a design that the exhausts gas pulses exit the car as quickly and with as little fuss as possible. Hence, not wasting valuable engine power in pushing out gases. This is acheived through tuned length and diameter systems.

Now as changes are made to the engine, exhaust gase exit pulses will change - hence logically, a System designed for a stock engine will be far different from one designed for a stock engine + spoon cams.

Spoon Cams have been designed to boost mid range torque SIGNIFICANLY, with lower top end power than stock (see the hotversion vcd download thread). However, spoon uses the same System on that car as with a car without the cams.

How can this be so? - Also, note that the Mugen System and dynos (on the king site etc), has been designed with the stock JDM s2000, which has different compression and hp. Therefore not optimal for the US, UK, AUS s2ks.

I have always contended that all exhaust mods should be last on the list of tuning, where if possible their lengths should be tuned to a specific engine criteria.

But given the popularity of these systems - the reason why the post has been directed at Mingster, I figured that as a supplier of many different types of system, that it would be possible for you to test on the one car - the effectiveness of the various existing systems. I know that in the past you have provided dyno readings of different cars with different combos, but again they have not been on the same car.

I know that I for one in this community would be extremely grateful if you could help, given your access to many different systems.

Anyways - enuff of my long rant

 

well, i would say you'll know soon enough on the various types of gains on:

header / exhaust / owner

spoon / mugen / mingster

mugen / spoon / prolene

spoon / spoon / reecespieces

so please be patient while i arrange things.

both prolene and i have the advantage of having an FPR but reecespieces does not, so i would expect to see some kind of "flattening" out of the power curve similar to every other dyno chart i've seen so far without FPR's help.

i expect the maximum "bolt-on" parts effectiveness would be achieved with both the FPR and a VAFC (waiting on that harness ). this is of course the limit you'd reach without running boost, squeezing, or doing internal upgrades.

now, as far as cams are concerned, i still can't get them from Spoon for one reason or another, so y'all will just have to be patient.

i often reflect upon my little company's inability to please those who're into instant gratification, and it's often sad to lose customers when i can barely keep up with all the back ordered parts, but i do hope that the information which we develop with the help of my friends and customers will be a better guide for those who've just started. i often say this, and i will repeat as many times as necessary: there is no single formula for modification! everyone has a different opinion of what their car should look or feel like. you'll see me trumpet the spoon, the neuspeed, the mugen, the kg/mm, the endless, or the zeal stuff because i carry some of them, but i do try to be fair in telling people that what mingster's got on his car may not work well with your plans (i also try telling people that some of this stuff is too expensive and they should try another brand. try hearing that from your local shop ). it's called "customization" for a reason, and i hope everyone can hold onto their money just a little longer (or let me hold onto them ) or risk putting it down for something that may not fit your bill.

 

My original post was in no way negative towards you or your business Mingster. Hope you didnt take it the wrong way!!!

In fact, it was directed to the tuning houses themselves.

I guess you popped into my mind as being a supplier i figure out of all of us you would have access to the widest range of mods.

And more importantly that you could test them and combos thereof on the same car - as different systems on different cars won't tell much given there is no baseline established.

Cheers dude - again I apologise if my msg was taken the wrong way!

 

Tze,
Those are good questions, and I'm certainly not qualified to answer them fully...but here's something to think about anyway.

My understanding of header/exhausts is that their primary performance benefit has always been lower restriction at moderate and high rpms. Things like scavenging and tuning are secondary effects used to eke out the last little bit of gain over the whole rpm range. Ultimately though, the main performance* benefit is still going to be lowered restriction at the rpms where horsepower peaks. Conversely, it stands to reason that a major midrange mod, like Spoon cams, won't be all that greatly affected by slightly inefficient scavenging. (E.g., remember, the distance between exhaust pulse peaks is a function of rpm, not cam profile; it's the pulse shapes that will change with new cams.)

It's interesting that back in the days when American iron ruled the road, output from the typical big V8 tended to be limited by airflow, so a bigger, less restrictive pipe was pretty much always a good thing. Any moderate loss of efficiency at low rpms wasn't a big deal since those cars had tons of torque (and no emissions laws!), plus they just sounded better and better the bigger the pipe. Nowadays, though, our temptation to just bolt on big pipes must be tempered with the fact that small, high-revving, low-torque engines need a bit of back-pressure to be efficient at low rpms, plus they have to meet stringent emissions standards.

*Note: "tuning" stubs don't enhance performance, they just make the exhaust sound better.

 

twohoos - yes I agree that the main job of a header/exhaust system is to get gases out asap. Which is the reason why any backpressure in an exhaust is counterproductive and BAD. It is a fallacy that NA engines need backpressure at low rpms etc.

However, on an NA engine as comppared to a FI engine, exhaust gases will exit slower and in smaller quantities, hence making it useful and productive to tune and enhance scavenging.

That is the reason why we have different header/exhaust designs, and why each will give different results.

Yes the distance between pulses will not change, but the amplitude change will be sufficient reason to vary length and size of tubing in order to scavenge gas flow.

 

no i didn't, sorry, it was late and i was helplessly wondering about my situation, and all of it points to a lack of capital to really be a better business. oh well, c'est la vie.