S2000 Brakes at the track
01-29-2002, 09:25 PM
#11
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S2000 brakes are excellent. For the track use race pads and fluid. Front ducting helps some I suppose. I had a Corvette driver ride with me and he noted in particular how amazingly good the brakes were (and that was with OE pads and fluid). My brake points were a good 30ft ahead of his.
01-29-2002, 10:10 PM
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As far as your question, my brakes aren't too happy after what I put them through. They feel strong, but now when I brake moderately hard or harder, there is *loud* squeaking, but there isn't squeaking or shaking of the breaks during regular commuting-style braking. Anyone know why?
Another local Atlanta member got upgraded (slotted) brakes for track and mountain drive use, after all 4 of his stock brakes were literally SMOKING after a run!
Another local Atlanta member got upgraded (slotted) brakes for track and mountain drive use, after all 4 of his stock brakes were literally SMOKING after a run!
01-30-2002, 04:41 AM
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Improving S-2000 brakes
First change fluid ( to a fluid with higher wet and dry boiling point )
Second install pads that fit the way you drive ( hot street or track)
Third remove dust shields from inside of rotors
Change brake lines to braided ( improves control at elevated pressures and temperatures)
Slotted rotors will not improve cooling or increase performance of braking
If you take performance of your car ,above these improvements , Improve the ability of rotor to remove heat , reduce weight of components and improve caliper ability to modulate and release off the rotor .
Brake ducting will not hurt , but at the levels all the cars that we have tested and the time on the track I see no benefit . It increases weight . On some cars on the street it will keep the brake system below the temperature that the pads work best. ( racing pads , some brands)
brad
First change fluid ( to a fluid with higher wet and dry boiling point )
Second install pads that fit the way you drive ( hot street or track)
Third remove dust shields from inside of rotors
Change brake lines to braided ( improves control at elevated pressures and temperatures)
Slotted rotors will not improve cooling or increase performance of braking
If you take performance of your car ,above these improvements , Improve the ability of rotor to remove heat , reduce weight of components and improve caliper ability to modulate and release off the rotor .
Brake ducting will not hurt , but at the levels all the cars that we have tested and the time on the track I see no benefit . It increases weight . On some cars on the street it will keep the brake system below the temperature that the pads work best. ( racing pads , some brands)
brad
01-30-2002, 07:11 AM
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Were you at the Tracquest on Jan 12-13, or at last weekend's PCA? I went to both. Which instructor are you, and whose S2000 did you drive? What's your name and vehicle? Are you with the ABC? I was driving the black S2000 and the silver M3, and rode in a variety of wonderful Porsches!
A couple instructors drove my car, but the one who was doing by far the fastest accidentally did a 1080
A couple instructors drove my car, but the one who was doing by far the fastest accidentally did a 1080
01-30-2002, 07:54 AM
#15
-dc, an excellent bit of driving advice. That should be in the FAQ's about the S2000's handling.
Pretty positive advice from a quy with a negative in front of his initials.
Pretty positive advice from a quy with a negative in front of his initials.
01-30-2002, 08:01 AM
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>Pretty positive advice from a quy with a negative in front of his initials. 
thanks for the note. That's actually not a negative, it's a throttle pressed all the way down...
I noticed my smilies didn't come out right in the first post. Don't know why. Anyway, the little boxes with the dots in the middle are supposed to be smilies.
-dc
thanks for the note. That's actually not a negative, it's a throttle pressed all the way down...
I noticed my smilies didn't come out right in the first post. Don't know why. Anyway, the little boxes with the dots in the middle are supposed to be smilies.
-dc
01-30-2002, 08:47 AM
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>I cannot argue with the advice, but on the S2000 the tail out to one side and the snap back to the other >can happen way too fast for a correction more times than not. The best advice is to not let it happen at all.
No doubt it can happen quickly and your advice is correct (for the beginning to early intermediate student). However, I don't agree that we should teach students the best way to deal with a certain situation is not to get into it in the first place. That advice doesn't really do them much good when they make a mistake and end up in the situation at some point (ie - an early apex).
No offense, but the s2k is not that hard to drive. 90% of my track driving experience is in high horsepower 911s and a 1978 highly modified 450hp 930 turbo. The s2k rotates quickly, but it isn't even close to a the trailing throttle oversteer of an old Porsche 911 (which is very controllable, so long as you know how to use the gas pedal). Also, an experienced driver knows that a spin correction often results in a needed additional correction back the other way. Also, catching the first part of a spin is less likely to result in a "snap back" once you gain experience and learn how much counter steer and throttle is needed.
The s2k has quick steering and a great throttle and learning how to use those two instruments is what it is all about. It is a fine-tuned instrument that requires skill to drive well (geez, one of tom's instructors even spun). However, people are going to go fast as they learn about track driving. Teaching them how to deal with scary situations, inevitable situations, is exactly the job of the instructor. It's easy to tell someone to be safe by staying WAY inside the envelope, but you don't learn much and you don't learn how to deal with a situation such as an early apex if you are never told how.
Keep in mind too, that you are talking about correcting a spin and I am talking about using measures to avoid the spin in the first place (ie - gentle breathe on the throttle to correct the line and back on the gas). The spin results from getting out of sorts and not knowing what to do. Using throttle steer to correct your line and avoid a spin is more valuable than dangerous.
-dc
No doubt it can happen quickly and your advice is correct (for the beginning to early intermediate student). However, I don't agree that we should teach students the best way to deal with a certain situation is not to get into it in the first place. That advice doesn't really do them much good when they make a mistake and end up in the situation at some point (ie - an early apex).
No offense, but the s2k is not that hard to drive. 90% of my track driving experience is in high horsepower 911s and a 1978 highly modified 450hp 930 turbo. The s2k rotates quickly, but it isn't even close to a the trailing throttle oversteer of an old Porsche 911 (which is very controllable, so long as you know how to use the gas pedal). Also, an experienced driver knows that a spin correction often results in a needed additional correction back the other way. Also, catching the first part of a spin is less likely to result in a "snap back" once you gain experience and learn how much counter steer and throttle is needed.
The s2k has quick steering and a great throttle and learning how to use those two instruments is what it is all about. It is a fine-tuned instrument that requires skill to drive well (geez, one of tom's instructors even spun). However, people are going to go fast as they learn about track driving. Teaching them how to deal with scary situations, inevitable situations, is exactly the job of the instructor. It's easy to tell someone to be safe by staying WAY inside the envelope, but you don't learn much and you don't learn how to deal with a situation such as an early apex if you are never told how.
Keep in mind too, that you are talking about correcting a spin and I am talking about using measures to avoid the spin in the first place (ie - gentle breathe on the throttle to correct the line and back on the gas). The spin results from getting out of sorts and not knowing what to do. Using throttle steer to correct your line and avoid a spin is more valuable than dangerous.
-dc
01-30-2002, 09:55 AM
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Hey Derick, nice to hear from you! I'm suprised you remembered all the details, that's cool. I was just talking to Ray (carrera S) by email and he suggested some readings for me.
Yeah, I was afraid to get on the gas earlier because I was certain I would spin it
I was a bit scared of the car after having done some nasty spins in the past. But they only occured when I mistakenly closed the throttle mid-turn, so I really should have been more bold at the track.
I have been practicing heel-toe ever since then, which I am terrible at so far (not smooth at all). Any tips?
George spun the car, but he was great about it and tried to correct as much as possible during the spin. It may have spun because he drove a different S2000 before it with an X-brace suspension piece, which mine doesn't have. He was almost certainly doing sub-1:50 laps until that point (even passing fast instructors in 911s/944s), I was on the edge of my seat and couldn't do anything but laugh the whole time, WOW he was fast! We avoided the wall, so I didn't mind.
I'm familiar with the throttle steer, however I can't take it to extremes on the street, because the power really gets down in the 6000+ rpm range - reckless speeds for local streets.
I learned alot from you and I was very comfortable with your instruction! I was having a BLAST in the m3 later on Sunday.... it's very easy and fun to drive. But for fun/$ the S2000 wins!
[QUOTE]Originally posted by -dc [B]
I'm Derick Cooper.
I was just talking to Ray (carrera S) by email and he suggested some readings for me.Yeah, I was afraid to get on the gas earlier because I was certain I would spin it
I was a bit scared of the car after having done some nasty spins in the past. But they only occured when I mistakenly closed the throttle mid-turn, so I really should have been more bold at the track.I have been practicing heel-toe ever since then, which I am terrible at so far (not smooth at all). Any tips?
George spun the car, but he was great about it and tried to correct as much as possible during the spin. It may have spun because he drove a different S2000 before it with an X-brace suspension piece, which mine doesn't have. He was almost certainly doing sub-1:50 laps until that point (even passing fast instructors in 911s/944s), I was on the edge of my seat and couldn't do anything but laugh the whole time, WOW he was fast! We avoided the wall, so I didn't mind.
I'm familiar with the throttle steer, however I can't take it to extremes on the street, because the power really gets down in the 6000+ rpm range - reckless speeds for local streets.
I learned alot from you and I was very comfortable with your instruction! I was having a BLAST in the m3 later on Sunday.... it's very easy and fun to drive. But for fun/$ the S2000 wins!
[QUOTE]Originally posted by -dc [B]
I'm Derick Cooper.
01-30-2002, 04:48 PM
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Originally posted by dwb1
Improving S-2000 brakes...
Brake ducting will not hurt , but at the levels all the cars that we have tested and the time on the track I see no benefit . It increases weight . On some cars on the street it will keep the brake system below the temperature that the pads work best. ( racing pads , some brands)
brad
Improving S-2000 brakes...
Brake ducting will not hurt , but at the levels all the cars that we have tested and the time on the track I see no benefit . It increases weight . On some cars on the street it will keep the brake system below the temperature that the pads work best. ( racing pads , some brands)
brad
We use Hawk Blue brake pads f/r, Motul 600 fluid, and brake ducts and have NO problems with brake performance on the King Motorsports/Over6Racing Project SS2000.
Our brake ducts add negligible weight. We were doing 15 lap sessions at Laguna Seca with no problems. At GingerMan Raceway we were lapping 18 per session with NO brake fade. This is with the OEM rotors and calipers and only the upgrades mentioned. Perviously we were only able to do two laps at GingerMan with the completely stock brake setup.
I think our upgrades are sufficient for our use.