S2000 Brakes at the track
02-06-2002, 05:41 PM
#41
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Originally posted by dwb1
The day we tested Josh was lapping the fastest .
brad
The day we tested Josh was lapping the fastest .
brad
The day we tested, Saturday, I was the second fastest S2000 on the track. I was about 1.5 Seconds behind Doug Hayashi and about 2.5 seconds faster than Josh.
Select the S2000 Challenge Series Results from the following...
http://wurthmotorsports.com/event_results.asp
02-06-2002, 07:32 PM
#43
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Ahhh... That may explain it... I burned thru a set of rear AO32Rs in the first 2 sessions and had to intsall some new tires... I installed some GoodYear GS-CS race tires and droped my time by 6 seconds. 
I think Warren had probably left the track by then.
I was told by the ButtonWillow tire guy that the GS-CS's are GY's answer to the Hoosier and are prefered by many of the racers there. Of coarse, he was trying to sell some tires... but.. I posted my fastest time not long after installing them and after that my times progressively got worse. My front A032Rs nearly died trying to keep up with them and i'm sure thats why my times got worse after my first session with them. The grip on those tires is simply amazing... I couldn't keep my inside rears planted going around turns and so i tried resorting to some power oversteer to keep them down with mixed results. I have a set of Khumos sitting here waiting for my CE28N's i hope they grip nearly as well as those GY's... Otherwise I see a set of GY or Hoosier in 17" in my future.
http://www.racegoodyear.com/products/racect32.html
I think Warren had probably left the track by then. I was told by the ButtonWillow tire guy that the GS-CS's are GY's answer to the Hoosier and are prefered by many of the racers there. Of coarse, he was trying to sell some tires... but.. I posted my fastest time not long after installing them and after that my times progressively got worse. My front A032Rs nearly died trying to keep up with them and i'm sure thats why my times got worse after my first session with them. The grip on those tires is simply amazing... I couldn't keep my inside rears planted going around turns and so i tried resorting to some power oversteer to keep them down with mixed results. I have a set of Khumos sitting here waiting for my CE28N's i hope they grip nearly as well as those GY's... Otherwise I see a set of GY or Hoosier in 17" in my future.
http://www.racegoodyear.com/products/racect32.html
02-06-2002, 08:12 PM
#44
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Brad, if the testing was not conclusive, and in that we agree, then you shouldn't have drawn all the conclusions in your first couple of posts. You yourself made this comment:
"I have seen a lot of information posted that is not true and conclusions drawn, with out data to back up statements "
You yourself are guilty of the very same thing you say motivates your testing.
For example:
"You will notice that the brake ducts on Dave's car ,reduces the center hub area by 100 degrees but does not reduce rotor temperature reached at the pads . "
Vs. what? Josh's car? You know that's an invalid comparison. In fact, since Dave is clearly dissipating more energy, its likely that the reduction in temps with ducts vs. stock is even higher. But we won't know exactly until you test the same car and same driver with different setups. So you can't make statements like you did.
"The rear stock rotor must load up with heat and reach a higher temperature . The light weight rotor is running cooler with racing pads on the rear . The increased surface area and shape must also promote cooling."
Running cooler than what? Prolene never tested the stock rear system, so what's your comparison? Again, Dave and Josh were clearly faster, so the comparison is invalid as is your statement.
"In the past it was posted that the one piece rotor on the fantastic Honda design , moved the heat in to the wheel to help cooling . You see by the testing that this does not happen . All you do is heat the "s'it "out of your hub and wheel bearings . The brake ducting did remove 100 degrees from this area"
What's the wheel temp and bearing temp? You don't know. How hot do the bearings get just under normal running (no braking)? You don't know. How much heat goes into the bearings vs. through the wheel? Since the wheel is a huge heatsink and radiator, more heat will proabably go into the wheel - but again, gotta test to be sure.
There are many other examples, but hopefully you get the point. You're drawing completely unfounded conclusions. Your system may well run cooler than stock, but you don't know that yet. I applaud your efforts to reduce rotating mass, unsprung mass and improve braking. I hope you are successful. Personally I think that you've approached a problem that has a relatively simple and cheap solution (pads/fluid/ducts for even the fastest cars and drivers - proven on the track) with a rather complex and costly modification. But that's my personal opinion, not a fact. The only reason I'm posting here is that I feel like you're misleading people.
UL
"I have seen a lot of information posted that is not true and conclusions drawn, with out data to back up statements "
You yourself are guilty of the very same thing you say motivates your testing.
For example:
"You will notice that the brake ducts on Dave's car ,reduces the center hub area by 100 degrees but does not reduce rotor temperature reached at the pads . "
Vs. what? Josh's car? You know that's an invalid comparison. In fact, since Dave is clearly dissipating more energy, its likely that the reduction in temps with ducts vs. stock is even higher. But we won't know exactly until you test the same car and same driver with different setups. So you can't make statements like you did.
"The rear stock rotor must load up with heat and reach a higher temperature . The light weight rotor is running cooler with racing pads on the rear . The increased surface area and shape must also promote cooling."
Running cooler than what? Prolene never tested the stock rear system, so what's your comparison? Again, Dave and Josh were clearly faster, so the comparison is invalid as is your statement.
"In the past it was posted that the one piece rotor on the fantastic Honda design , moved the heat in to the wheel to help cooling . You see by the testing that this does not happen . All you do is heat the "s'it "out of your hub and wheel bearings . The brake ducting did remove 100 degrees from this area"
What's the wheel temp and bearing temp? You don't know. How hot do the bearings get just under normal running (no braking)? You don't know. How much heat goes into the bearings vs. through the wheel? Since the wheel is a huge heatsink and radiator, more heat will proabably go into the wheel - but again, gotta test to be sure.
There are many other examples, but hopefully you get the point. You're drawing completely unfounded conclusions. Your system may well run cooler than stock, but you don't know that yet. I applaud your efforts to reduce rotating mass, unsprung mass and improve braking. I hope you are successful. Personally I think that you've approached a problem that has a relatively simple and cheap solution (pads/fluid/ducts for even the fastest cars and drivers - proven on the track) with a rather complex and costly modification. But that's my personal opinion, not a fact. The only reason I'm posting here is that I feel like you're misleading people.
UL
02-07-2002, 05:43 AM
#46
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UL
As always anything can be added to change the way we look at things .
We will be looking at the things that you addressed , not to show that our system works better , but to show that our conclusions are correct.
How can you sit at your key board and think that the 500 to 600 degree center rotor temperature of the stock rotor is not going to transfer into the steel hub that has more contact surface that the aluminum wheel . ( you are correct I did not measure it)
How hot does a stock hub run on the street ? ( yes I did not measure , but I feel that these elevated temperature will effect wear ) do I care . Not on your car .
I will be looking for more complete information , not because the way our system works , but I am interested out of curiosity .
I have seen tons of posts on air ducts ( not a bad idea ) with no regard to having the brake system work correctly in the first place .
The only thing that Warren Gilliland needed to know was, rotor temperature and driver feed back . This man designs all types of braking systems and has been doing it for 34 years .
I would agree that pads and fluid will satisfy most drivers on this car . I find that the solution for ,not selecting the correct pad or properly bedding these pads , is brake ducts.
The testing that we did while not conclusive , shows three cars running race rubber on a race track , not hired buy me , driving faster than average , measuring their brake component temperatures . Most information that I have seen posted ,showed limited information based on one car , the person driving the car , was one of the people gathering the information . I did this same thing when I drove my car , during testing in Ohio at Nelson Ledges race track . I was using stock SO-2 tires . At the track I was trying to push the H*LL out of the system Why? I was going to sell them and whether they worked or did not work would be my responsibility . This information was valuable to me , I posted the results , but I also posted how I obtained them .
When we went to Button Willow to test , we added 3 cars to the mix , Al's car had our system on it . Dave's car had brake ducts , stock system and racing pads and Josh's car stock system with no ducts . These cars were not supplied by me and the drivers were not hired by me . They drove around the track the way they normally do on this track .
The information collected, was still valuable to me , but I posted the results . It is funny that the posts from Ohio in the summer , were close to the temperatures reached in California last month . I was not there , I was not driving .
We sell our system on performance ( better ability to modulate the brakes ) this is a drivers perception not a measurable fact . The fact that we reduce weight and provide a better looking package is part of this performance . Whether we need brake ducts to accomplish this task, in all conditions and with all drivers , is a job that I need to confirm .
The information that I collect , based on the stock cars brakes , is being used for pad selection and problem solving . I gather it , you or anyone can use it , as you see fit .
My goal all along, was to provide "MY CAR" with the best braking system I could buy . I could not find or buy one . That is why this project started . I had no preconceived ideas of what parts would make this up . ( RED or BLUE Big Ass Stuff ) I started from scratch . With maximum performance and fitting in the stock Honda wheels as the design criteria .
I am very pleased with the finished product and the way it performs . Whether you need or want one is immaterial to me . Seeing something grow from an idea ,to a working system, is what provided my satisfaction. Selling high end braking systems to a limited production car is not the only thing in the world . ( I won't quit my day job.) The costs to produce the first prototype and now the production kits is high , the time factor is unbelievable . The man in Ashtabula , Ohio that does my prototyping and manufacturing, of custom parts , Larry Fargo deserves most of the credit , with out his 1,000 of hours of help , this would not ever moved forward . I have the ideas , but he gets the sh*t made . He is also a car nut , but Model A's .
brad
As always anything can be added to change the way we look at things .
We will be looking at the things that you addressed , not to show that our system works better , but to show that our conclusions are correct.
How can you sit at your key board and think that the 500 to 600 degree center rotor temperature of the stock rotor is not going to transfer into the steel hub that has more contact surface that the aluminum wheel . ( you are correct I did not measure it)
How hot does a stock hub run on the street ? ( yes I did not measure , but I feel that these elevated temperature will effect wear ) do I care . Not on your car .
I will be looking for more complete information , not because the way our system works , but I am interested out of curiosity .
I have seen tons of posts on air ducts ( not a bad idea ) with no regard to having the brake system work correctly in the first place .
The only thing that Warren Gilliland needed to know was, rotor temperature and driver feed back . This man designs all types of braking systems and has been doing it for 34 years .
I would agree that pads and fluid will satisfy most drivers on this car . I find that the solution for ,not selecting the correct pad or properly bedding these pads , is brake ducts.
The testing that we did while not conclusive , shows three cars running race rubber on a race track , not hired buy me , driving faster than average , measuring their brake component temperatures . Most information that I have seen posted ,showed limited information based on one car , the person driving the car , was one of the people gathering the information . I did this same thing when I drove my car , during testing in Ohio at Nelson Ledges race track . I was using stock SO-2 tires . At the track I was trying to push the H*LL out of the system Why? I was going to sell them and whether they worked or did not work would be my responsibility . This information was valuable to me , I posted the results , but I also posted how I obtained them .
When we went to Button Willow to test , we added 3 cars to the mix , Al's car had our system on it . Dave's car had brake ducts , stock system and racing pads and Josh's car stock system with no ducts . These cars were not supplied by me and the drivers were not hired by me . They drove around the track the way they normally do on this track .
The information collected, was still valuable to me , but I posted the results . It is funny that the posts from Ohio in the summer , were close to the temperatures reached in California last month . I was not there , I was not driving .
We sell our system on performance ( better ability to modulate the brakes ) this is a drivers perception not a measurable fact . The fact that we reduce weight and provide a better looking package is part of this performance . Whether we need brake ducts to accomplish this task, in all conditions and with all drivers , is a job that I need to confirm .
The information that I collect , based on the stock cars brakes , is being used for pad selection and problem solving . I gather it , you or anyone can use it , as you see fit .
My goal all along, was to provide "MY CAR" with the best braking system I could buy . I could not find or buy one . That is why this project started . I had no preconceived ideas of what parts would make this up . ( RED or BLUE Big Ass Stuff ) I started from scratch . With maximum performance and fitting in the stock Honda wheels as the design criteria .
I am very pleased with the finished product and the way it performs . Whether you need or want one is immaterial to me . Seeing something grow from an idea ,to a working system, is what provided my satisfaction. Selling high end braking systems to a limited production car is not the only thing in the world . ( I won't quit my day job.) The costs to produce the first prototype and now the production kits is high , the time factor is unbelievable . The man in Ashtabula , Ohio that does my prototyping and manufacturing, of custom parts , Larry Fargo deserves most of the credit , with out his 1,000 of hours of help , this would not ever moved forward . I have the ideas , but he gets the sh*t made . He is also a car nut , but Model A's .
brad
02-07-2002, 06:58 AM
#48
Brad, thanks again for your efforts and posts. I forwarded your first one to a racer friend for his thoughts, and his first comment was the same one that UL just posted -- that the tests would have been more meaningful if the same person would have driven each of the three cars, so I had to smile when I saw UL posted it.
These are great brakes for normal street driving but clearly they can use some improvements to make them track ready. To me the most frustrating thing is the lack of support by Honda on a topic such as this. Here's a car that comes with an SCCA application form in with the owner's manual but without corporate support for things like ducting, comp pads and rotors, etc. It irks me that average joes has to find solutions through trial and error. It almost seems as if they are content to prove their point that they build a great engine, and that's that.
End of rant.
These are great brakes for normal street driving but clearly they can use some improvements to make them track ready. To me the most frustrating thing is the lack of support by Honda on a topic such as this. Here's a car that comes with an SCCA application form in with the owner's manual but without corporate support for things like ducting, comp pads and rotors, etc. It irks me that average joes has to find solutions through trial and error. It almost seems as if they are content to prove their point that they build a great engine, and that's that.
End of rant.
02-07-2002, 07:13 AM
#49
Registered User
Brad, you've completely missed the point. As I said, I hope you're successful. But along the way, don't mislead people. You have some data, but it isn't enough to be conclusive, yet you made very misleading conclusions, some that may have even been patently wrong. That's my beef. I pointed out a few examples, I could point out more. In your last post you said you feel that elevated rotor hat temps will affect wheel bearing wear. I can live with that statement because its how you feel. Other statements are not tolerable (as I pointed out). If you want to get into a thermal engineering discussion, hey, that's great.
Dave, the reduction in mass is the biggest benefit of this system. If the temperature issues are controllable then its all good. Just remember that in temrs of rotating mass and moment of inertia (MoI), the farther from the axis of rotation the better.
UL
Dave, the reduction in mass is the biggest benefit of this system. If the temperature issues are controllable then its all good. Just remember that in temrs of rotating mass and moment of inertia (MoI), the farther from the axis of rotation the better.
UL
Especially what I highlighted in italics...