s2000 spin out
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Originally Posted by S2KN05,Oct 14 2010, 05:40 PM
ding ding ding. We have a winner.
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Originally Posted by tarheel91,Oct 14 2010, 08:57 PM
Right, as I mentioned, drag strip = radials of some sort that are generally fat. I was trying to continuing with that train of thought. Sorry, it does seem unclear now that I read back over it.
Bias ply tires reach maximum acceleration at larger slip angles because of construction and are thus easier to manage at the limit. So, yeah, you're totally right in that regard. My point though was that muscle cars designed for the strip (like my dad's Corvettes) featured relatively fat radials which lead to the same "snap oversteer" as what you see driving an S2000.
@s2cho: Fat tires or not, your spin out had to do with driver error and was made worse by bald tires. But you got it backwards. Fat tires lead to less warning of the tail end breaking loose.
Bias ply tires reach maximum acceleration at larger slip angles because of construction and are thus easier to manage at the limit. So, yeah, you're totally right in that regard. My point though was that muscle cars designed for the strip (like my dad's Corvettes) featured relatively fat radials which lead to the same "snap oversteer" as what you see driving an S2000.
@s2cho: Fat tires or not, your spin out had to do with driver error and was made worse by bald tires. But you got it backwards. Fat tires lead to less warning of the tail end breaking loose.
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As far as comparing to other cars I have driven I would not say a Z4M is quick to oversteer or snap oversteer. This is even compared to an AP2 a Z4M feels pretty safe to drive. And I have limited RWD experience...I have lost control of an S2000 before and thankfully there wasn't a curb within reach.
As far as fat tires causing under steer that doesn't make sense to me....most RWD sports cars have wider tires in the rear to prevent oversteer. Think about why some people take RWD cars that have a tendency to understeer (like 135i or 335i) and intentionally move to non-staggered tire set ups to reduce understeer.
When a car oversteers easily with wider tires in the back its probably just the suspension set up. I'd venture a guess that the S2000 could get a decent amount more grip in the back by adding a touch of negative camber. Although I am really poking in the dark here...anyone that actually tracks their S2000 want to chime in?
As far as fat tires causing under steer that doesn't make sense to me....most RWD sports cars have wider tires in the rear to prevent oversteer. Think about why some people take RWD cars that have a tendency to understeer (like 135i or 335i) and intentionally move to non-staggered tire set ups to reduce understeer.
When a car oversteers easily with wider tires in the back its probably just the suspension set up. I'd venture a guess that the S2000 could get a decent amount more grip in the back by adding a touch of negative camber. Although I am really poking in the dark here...anyone that actually tracks their S2000 want to chime in?
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[QUOTE=budgy,Oct 14 2010, 06:13 PM] As far as comparing to other cars I have driven I would not say a Z4M is quick to oversteer or snap oversteer. This is even compared to an AP2 a Z4M feels pretty safe to drive.
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Originally Posted by budgy,Oct 14 2010, 10:13 PM
As far as comparing to other cars I have driven I would not say a Z4M is quick to oversteer or snap oversteer. This is even compared to an AP2 a Z4M feels pretty safe to drive. And I have limited RWD experience...I have lost control of an S2000 before and thankfully there wasn't a curb within reach.
As far as fat tires causing under steer that doesn't make sense to me....most RWD sports cars have wider tires in the rear to prevent oversteer. Think about why some people take RWD cars that have a tendency to understeer (like 135i or 335i) and intentionally move to non-staggered tire set ups to reduce understeer.
When a car oversteers easily with wider tires in the back its probably just the suspension set up. I'd venture a guess that the S2000 could get a decent amount more grip in the back by adding a touch of negative camber. Although I am really poking in the dark here...anyone that actually tracks their S2000 want to chime in?
As far as fat tires causing under steer that doesn't make sense to me....most RWD sports cars have wider tires in the rear to prevent oversteer. Think about why some people take RWD cars that have a tendency to understeer (like 135i or 335i) and intentionally move to non-staggered tire set ups to reduce understeer.
When a car oversteers easily with wider tires in the back its probably just the suspension set up. I'd venture a guess that the S2000 could get a decent amount more grip in the back by adding a touch of negative camber. Although I am really poking in the dark here...anyone that actually tracks their S2000 want to chime in?
@DammitJim: Sarcastic response to basic information readily available anywhere? Genius.
@s2cho: No. Learn how to drive a RWD car. That will prevent you from crashing your car again. The problem is with you, not the car.
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Originally Posted by budgy,Oct 14 2010, 04:13 PM
As far as comparing to other cars I have driven I would not say a Z4M is quick to oversteer or snap oversteer. This is even compared to an AP2 a Z4M feels pretty safe to drive. And I have limited RWD experience...I have lost control of an S2000 before and thankfully there wasn't a curb within reach.
As far as fat tires causing under steer that doesn't make sense to me....most RWD sports cars have wider tires in the rear to prevent oversteer. Think about why some people take RWD cars that have a tendency to understeer (like 135i or 335i) and intentionally move to non-staggered tire set ups to reduce understeer.
When a car oversteers easily with wider tires in the back its probably just the suspension set up. I'd venture a guess that the S2000 could get a decent amount more grip in the back by adding a touch of negative camber. Although I am really poking in the dark here...anyone that actually tracks their S2000 want to chime in?
As far as fat tires causing under steer that doesn't make sense to me....most RWD sports cars have wider tires in the rear to prevent oversteer. Think about why some people take RWD cars that have a tendency to understeer (like 135i or 335i) and intentionally move to non-staggered tire set ups to reduce understeer.
When a car oversteers easily with wider tires in the back its probably just the suspension set up. I'd venture a guess that the S2000 could get a decent amount more grip in the back by adding a touch of negative camber. Although I am really poking in the dark here...anyone that actually tracks their S2000 want to chime in?
Thats not totally the case though, because the AP1 has a tendency to change toe (according to info I've read) as it goes through tis suspension motion. The toe chance causes a slight "wiggle" in the back, which scares the driver, the driver lifts off the throttle, the toe moves back OUT, which then gives less grip, which causes the spin.
In series:
1) go in too hot, rear tires are toeing in (prevents oversteer)
2) step off throttle
3) car balance gets upset slightly, as well as:
4) toe changes back outwards due to "toe change with bump" handling characteristics
5) car balance upset + toe out = tornado time.
Of course, if you do have really wimpy tires/slipper tires and you "lose control" of the car its easier to recover because you lose control at a lower speed.
If I recall correctly, "SNAP-oversteer" which the s2000 is known for (ap1, mostly) is due to the toe changing through the suspension motion, which is different from just pure "oversteer"
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From: Benicia, CA
S2Cho, what stops this happening is you taking responsibility. Congratulations, you met a limit... and you failed to keep it within it's limit. No amounts of mods are going to prevent an accident caused by A) A bad driver and B) Poor tires. Your nonchalant attitude at such an accident is semi appaling. It's no secret that the s2000 isn't the most tame animal... if you don't know how to drive it. Your ability to hit a curb/pole, irregardless of other circumstances were directly caused by your inability to drive as fast as you were, in the conditions you were in. Unless someone physically forces your car into a pole, there isn't any technological excuse in the world where hitting a curb/pole ISN'T your fault. Man up, learn how to drive. Just be glad you didn't take someone else with you and the damage was as minimal as it was. You've learned a great lesson, in an immensely cheaper way than some.