[QUOTE=mrkjsn,Feb 13 2008, 08:39 AM]hahaha.

 

I think even the new AP2's have some unpredictability.

There have been a few incidents on this board (2 or 3) where odd things were going on...no VTEC, no accel, flat, dry, and off into spin land. One victim mentioned a bearing or something might have seized. This may be a bigger problem/pattern and we just write it off to poor driving when there are more factors in play that can cloud the evaluation.

Those cases aside, the S is predictable...that's not the whole story tho.

Riding a bicycle on an icy sidewalk is predictable. You don't do the same things you do on all other bicycles or you end up under the bike. That does not mean that riding a bicycle on ice is just a safe as riding it on summer pavement. You could call it predictable tho.

The 'at risk' factor here is that if you drive the S like you would drive most other cars on the road, then you are more likely to lose control at some point. Cold roads, damp roads, odd power curve, tiny event horizon on traction loss, tight tire condition tolerance, and a few other things contribute to this increased risk.

Can you mitigate? Yes, practice, track, etc. You can learn about the various factors in play (things you would not need to focus on as much with other cars), and try and keep the vehicle out of the traps above. You can learn best practices on how to recover from a trap (although, there are most definitely traps that once triggered, you will not be able to recover from).

 

Clearly not every accident is the result of some driver error, because $hit happens, but with the S2000 the vast majority of spins are due to the driver more than the car. The "problem" (if you want to call it that) is that the car is less forgiving of driver errors than most other modern cars. Old RWD 911's had similar "problems." When the tail started to slide, you had to get ON the gas HARD, which is just the opposite of what most people will do. However, the failure of a driver to know how to drive the car properly doesn't mean that his crash is the car's fault. The old 911's weren't designed for "average" drivers either, and they killed and/or injured lots of average drivers over the years, but they are still one of the BEST handling cars ever, IN THE RIGHT HANDS.

Even when the car crashes because the driver let a mechanical problem develop, it's still the drivers fault. There are exceptions, but in *almost* every case, car crashes are caused by people, not their cars, and that's true even with a totally unstable and unsafe car. If a car is unstable and unsafe, a "good driver" will slow his butt down appropriately.

 

I don't believe that is a true statement at all.

My S behaves just like every other RWD car I've ever had, except it behaves better than most in that the suspension is better.

My Miata behaved the same, except it didn't have the power.

My 3rd gen RX7 behaved the same and it did have the power but it also added the unpredictability of a turbo hit.

Shelby Cobras, Ferraris, Astons, Austin Healeys, MGs, Porsches, etc., etc. They all behave the same and adhere to the same laws of physics that my S does.

My reaction patterns have developed on RWD cars so any time I get in trouble my body knows what to do.

I have had numerous performance FWD vehicles too, but I have had to stay very focused to keep them on the road. I have to talk my way thru a trouble spot with them.

 

I think we are agreeing on point here.

Since you developed on RWD you are more comfortable with it.

When you drive FWD, you have to stay very focused.

Most (90%?) drivers on the road developed on FWD. It is opposite for them.

The S brings this opposite to them. The S requires this focus from them, much as you say the FWD requires the focus from you.

I take it a step further to say that the S is a squirrel that stands out even among squirrels.

 

There's a lot of accurate information in this thread. And then there's this.

Condemn Miata for what it is if you must, but claiming to being outrun by a prius is just goofy.

Edit: I suck.. I totally ignored the OP's question. In my experience, I DO find the s2000 to be one of the more difficult sports cars to handle at it's outer edge of performance -- the large amount of grip and the lack of torque make for a car that's somewhat hard to recover once it DOES let go and the MX5 IS easier to handle at it's absolute limit than is the S2000, but -
a) Stock for stock, the s2000's absolute limits are higher so everything happens a little quicker.
b) assuming you don't drive like a total jerk, you won't approach either car's absolute limit on your commute

If you like the S, get it.. it's not "dangerous" by any means.

 

I believe you, but your statement tells me that you have never pushed the cars limits. OR, if you have pushed the cars limits, you are very insensitive to what the car is doing. The S2000, and particularly AP1's, have a stronger bias toward oversteer than any other modern production car. That alone makes it more unstable than any other modern production car, and if you can't feel that in the car, you're going to be in serious trouble if you ever have to use the cars full potential to avoid an accident. If you've never noticed the way the car behaves when VTEC engages, then you're driving it like a wuss, and have no business telling anyone anything about how the car gets people into trouble, because you're one of the guys who never uses the car the way it was intended to be used.

Honestly man, if you think the S2000 is just like every other RWD car you've owned, and you push the cars limits, you are at serious risk.
Be careful!

 

Not as goofy as saying that the S2000 handles just like every other RWD car.

 

The NC has better brake-power to weight ratio than the S2000. After gotten used to my NC for months, driving a S2000 for the first time really surprised me. I over shot a stop sign by like 3 feet. Lol.

 

The S is one of the trickiest cars to drive at the limit.

In a Miata, if you lift off a bit (not all the way) during oversteer, the car will sort itself out. The NA Miata I had (don't know about the NC) was the easiest car I have ever driven at the limit of adhesion and beyond.

The S (AP1) on the other hand wants to bite you. The chassis' reactions are so incredibly fast that it can be very hard to catch a slide, especially in the dry with good tires. Lift off the gas during a slide, and the rear will grip again in an instant, turn the car the other way, and you'll shoot off the road. Staying on the gas requires training, determination, and quite a bit of room.

I think it's a factor of low polar moment of inertia and the stiff suspension that creates these very fast state changes between slide and grip.

Transitioning between understeer and oversteer by modulating the throttle is also not for the faint of heart (ask me how i know).

I'm not saying you can't drive around that, or can't learn how to catch a slide, but for me, it's clearly in a different league of skill than e.g. a 91 Miata, a HKT Super Seven or a Porsche 928, all of which I have extensive driving experience in, on road and track.

Note that I don't know how much has changed during the later S2000 model years, but I do expect that the current S is much less of a handful.

Also note that with every car, you can avoid problems by not driving up to the limit in situations where the risk is too big, and the limits on the S are very high.

-marin