Shifter Feel
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From: Dry Branch
Originally Posted by nightcrawler7188,Mar 10 2006, 09:54 AM
I've had a used 2002 Suzuka with 43k miles on it for about 5 months now, and one thing that I've always wondered is whether or not the shifter is supposed to feel notchy while shifting--it feels like you have to snap it or click it into gear, whereas in cars like the 350Z and the G35, the shifter kind of slides into gear--is the S2000's stock shifter supposed to feel this way, or is something wrong with mine?
Also, I find that I have to release my clutch a relatively far distance back (maybe 85%) until it engages--is this normal in the S2000?
Also, I find that I have to release my clutch a relatively far distance back (maybe 85%) until it engages--is this normal in the S2000?
If the shifting is really notchy, I'd suggest changing the transmission oil, but don't expect this car to shift like the luxury cars you mentioned. It's not that kind of car.
The shifter is extremely quick and accurate in competent hands, and it should NOT be notchy. You should be able to feel what's going on with the transmission, and may be confusing that with a problem. Anyway, change the trans oil and see if that helps.
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From: Dry Branch
Originally Posted by Race Miata,Mar 10 2006, 06:16 PM
I've been saying it many times that unnecessarily notchy feel shifting this car is due to shift timing. Compare to many other cars even high performance ones, the S has a pretty light flywheel from the factory. Together with the revvy nature of the over-square engine and close-ratio gearbox, everything happens much faster than other cars and therefore requires more precise shift timing. I'm not telling you all to rush and force each shift, but to pack the timing of events (except one which I'll get to later) closer together.
By timing of events, I mean 1) reaching disengage/engage point on the clutch pedal (doesn't matter how long it takes to start pressing the clutch to the point it reaches the disengage/enage point), 2) lift on gas, 3) move shifter out of lower gear, 3) lean shifter against entrance of higher gear, 4) flick shifter into higher gear, 5) engage clutch.
By NOT rushing/forcing, I mean DON'T slam the clutch pedal like you want to break it and throw the shifter into the next gear like you want to punch your biggest enemy and yet leave one second delay (exaggerating) between the tasks. OTOH, by packing the timing of events closer together, I mean that you can squeeze on the clutch pedal like grandma and slowly and effortlessly move the shifter out of gear but yet you can have the clutch pedal reaching the disengage/engage point almost the same time you move the shifter out of gear. See the difference?
The only point that allows the most delay is between 3) and 4), waiting for the synchros to do their job. If your timing of events is right (in the case of the S pack most of the events close together), the synchros needs very little job and you'll need very little delay between 3) and 4). In many case, you will almost feel like a gate suddenly opens and let your shifter in. In fact when I get the timing right, I CAN upshift my S (and my miata) even WITHOUT clutch, grind or resistance.
On the miata forum, people said the closer-ratio 6-speed box on the 2nd-gen car was notchier compared to the wider-ratio 5-speed box (even on otherwise identical car). They figured when shifting 1st to 2nd with the middle finger UNDER the shift knob made it less notchy. So...
1) Why do short shifter help reduce notchiness?
2) Why do people find swapping in a bigger clutch master cylinder (thus shorter and quicker clutch pedal stroke) help notchy shifter?
3) Why is it notchier to shift a closer-ratio box than a wider-ratio one?
4) Why do people find shifting at higher RPM help reduce notchiness?
5) Why do people find blipping the throttle a second time before throwing in the next higher gear help in the cold?
Normally you would think the exact opposite SHOULD be true. Well, for many other cars with wide-ratio gearbox, heavy flywheel, non-responsive engine and ECU, that statement may be true because you have to wait for the engine/tranny speed to drop for the next higher gear. But for the S with the total opposite characteristics, engine and tranny speed drop too fast for many people. Apart from outside factors, the key comes down to
1) because of shorter delay between events without rushing
2) same as 2)
3) because engine speed and tranny inputshaft speed take longer to slow down to what's required by the next higher gear and therefore allow more delay between events
4) same as 3)
5) same as 3)
Again, I know it sounds like I'm telling you all to rush your shifts which is absolutely NOT what I mean. The key here is to get the timing of events nice and smooth and precise but NOT giving unnecessary delay between them. I know its hard to digest this but keep on trying different shift timing and think back what I say in here next time you see engine speed drops below the required speed when you release the clutch upon an upshift.
By timing of events, I mean 1) reaching disengage/engage point on the clutch pedal (doesn't matter how long it takes to start pressing the clutch to the point it reaches the disengage/enage point), 2) lift on gas, 3) move shifter out of lower gear, 3) lean shifter against entrance of higher gear, 4) flick shifter into higher gear, 5) engage clutch.
By NOT rushing/forcing, I mean DON'T slam the clutch pedal like you want to break it and throw the shifter into the next gear like you want to punch your biggest enemy and yet leave one second delay (exaggerating) between the tasks. OTOH, by packing the timing of events closer together, I mean that you can squeeze on the clutch pedal like grandma and slowly and effortlessly move the shifter out of gear but yet you can have the clutch pedal reaching the disengage/engage point almost the same time you move the shifter out of gear. See the difference?
The only point that allows the most delay is between 3) and 4), waiting for the synchros to do their job. If your timing of events is right (in the case of the S pack most of the events close together), the synchros needs very little job and you'll need very little delay between 3) and 4). In many case, you will almost feel like a gate suddenly opens and let your shifter in. In fact when I get the timing right, I CAN upshift my S (and my miata) even WITHOUT clutch, grind or resistance.
On the miata forum, people said the closer-ratio 6-speed box on the 2nd-gen car was notchier compared to the wider-ratio 5-speed box (even on otherwise identical car). They figured when shifting 1st to 2nd with the middle finger UNDER the shift knob made it less notchy. So...
1) Why do short shifter help reduce notchiness?
2) Why do people find swapping in a bigger clutch master cylinder (thus shorter and quicker clutch pedal stroke) help notchy shifter?
3) Why is it notchier to shift a closer-ratio box than a wider-ratio one?
4) Why do people find shifting at higher RPM help reduce notchiness?
5) Why do people find blipping the throttle a second time before throwing in the next higher gear help in the cold?
Normally you would think the exact opposite SHOULD be true. Well, for many other cars with wide-ratio gearbox, heavy flywheel, non-responsive engine and ECU, that statement may be true because you have to wait for the engine/tranny speed to drop for the next higher gear. But for the S with the total opposite characteristics, engine and tranny speed drop too fast for many people. Apart from outside factors, the key comes down to
1) because of shorter delay between events without rushing
2) same as 2)
3) because engine speed and tranny inputshaft speed take longer to slow down to what's required by the next higher gear and therefore allow more delay between events
4) same as 3)
5) same as 3)
Again, I know it sounds like I'm telling you all to rush your shifts which is absolutely NOT what I mean. The key here is to get the timing of events nice and smooth and precise but NOT giving unnecessary delay between them. I know its hard to digest this but keep on trying different shift timing and think back what I say in here next time you see engine speed drops below the required speed when you release the clutch upon an upshift.
I couldn't resist. When I got back to the shop I told all the whiners that they needed to learn to drive. 
I'm only just beginning to come to understand that not everyone shifts (or drives) in the same way. I've always counted on feedback from the car to tell me what to do, and when (When do I shift? When do I blip the throttle? How fast do I shift? etc.), and I have trouble grasping the fact that everyone doesn't do exactly the same things in the same way(s). It would never dawn on me that someone might not shift in harmony with the car (whatever the car or situation), so posts like yours are real eye openers.
RACE MIATA may have hit the nail on the head here. I'd still change the trans and diff fluids, and I'd get that clutch checked out, but the shifting problem could simply be a matter of a mismatch between the car and the drivers technique.
I agree that most cars, including the S2000, can be shifted without even using the clutch, as long as you get the timing right. This applies to down shifts as well as upshifts, though downshifts are difficult with some cars, and something I wouldn't recommend unless one KNOWS they can pull it off without grinding. Also, a good driver should be able to shift far smoother than any automatic. If you can't, it probably does mean that your timing is off.
If you're having problems getting silky smooth shifts, re-read everything RACE MIATA said, and practice.
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Originally Posted by nightcrawler7188,Mar 10 2006, 02:54 PM
I've had a used 2002 Suzuka with 43k miles on it for about 5 months now...
I've had doubts about the shifter's feel, I guess it's just the nature of the car though.
Better than any Mustang or Trans Am or Corvette or Civic i've driven.My brother's Prelude had THE best linkage setup...it was smooth as butter.
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From: IN THE HOOD
the clutch engagement / take-up is a bit high... so i cant go from fully depressed to full release while keeping my heel on the ground so thats a tad annoying... my old sentra se-r had cable clutch that i could just adjust the engagement point on ...
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From: Dry Branch
Originally Posted by smurf2k,Mar 10 2006, 09:59 PM
the clutch engagement / take-up is a bit high... so i cant go from fully depressed to full release while keeping my heel on the ground so thats a tad annoying... my old sentra se-r had cable clutch that i could just adjust the engagement point on ...
If your clutch engages mid-stroke then that's as it should be. You need your heel off the floor to jab the throttle during heal/toe shifting and double-clutching (and the car is set up to make that easy).
If you are having trouble shifting it might be a mechanical problem, but it could also be timing, as RACE MIATA explained. I doubt it's related to the clutch, unless your engagement point is LOW (close to the floor). That would indicate that the clutch might not be releasing fully, which WILL make shifting more difficult.
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From: Miami, FL
Sometimes my 1st-2nd shift is a little jerky. All other shifts are almost always perfect. I've gotten used to it. Will sloppy shifting actually harm anything, or just make you look like an amatour? My shifting it pretty clean (not my first manual), but some people say they can drive the S just like an auto, and mine is not that smooth.
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From: SoCal
Originally Posted by RED MX5,Mar 12 2006, 02:55 PM
Jsmply, I'm one of those who has said that the S2000 (or any manual) can be driven smoother than an automatic, but a great deal depends on one's driving style. As long as you're not getting grinding noises when you shift, and aren't jerking the car around excessively, you probably don't have to worry about harming anything. Of course I can't know that for sure, because I really don't know how you drive and shift, but modern transmissions and clutches are pretty forgiving.