Toasted engine
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Joined: Oct 2000
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From: Sheridan
dhoward, contact s2klisa on this board. She has the names and numbers of whom you should contact at AHM. She was one of the first with this problem. Eventually, AHM bought her car with the replaced engine and got her a new S2000.
Many, perhaps most, of the #4 cylinder failures were low on oil when the car developed the tap-tap-tap that led to diagnosis. Mine was not and couple of others were not. While AHM seems to be blaming the #4 cylinder failure on low oil, I wonder if the oil goes low BECAUSE the #4 cylinder has failed. Certainly my #4 piston head was covered with oil blowing past the rings when my dealer first looked in.
EVERYBODY, YOU'VE GOT TO CHECK THE OIL LEVEL EVERY TIME YOU BUY GASOLINE AND DOCUMENT IT. I now keep the gasoline receipt and note the odometer reading, the number of miles since the last gasoline purchase, and the status of the dipstick. If I add oil, I note that too. Do it and do it at the time.
I don't believe doing this will prevent any engine failures. Well, I'm not sure it will. But we've got to get AHM to fix this problem. I know they are working on it. If they blame low oil when low oil is really the result and not the cause, we are all losers.
Concerning the oil idiot light not coming on, no one has seen that happen. These engines, in fact all Honda engines my dealer tells me, can have dangerously low oil with no idiot light warning. My dealer explained it as the difference between low oil pressure and low oil volume, but I must say, I didn't follow what he was talking about.
Concerning your engine failure not being covered by warranty, THIS IS A FIRST. cde had to fight to get his covered because he lost oil through a damaged HONDA BRAND oil filter. I think AHM was blaming the dealer and the dealer was blaming "road hazard" or something, but eventually AHM had his engine fixed and sorted it out between AHM and the dealer.
CHECK YOUR OIL EVERY TIME YOU BUY GASOLINE. It may not save your engine, but it might save you the cost of an $11,000 repair.
dhoward, private mail me if I can be more help. Find out if it was the #4 cylinder. If it was, you are in much better position to discuss this as manufacturing defect rather than user error. You might be able to contact Woodwork for advice. He works for AHM, is involved with the engines with failed #4 cylinders before they go back to Japan for further study. Woodwork monitors this board and posts occasionally. He may not be able to do anything for you, but he is honest and a huge s2000 fan. He probably understand the engineering of the F20c as well or better than anyone else in North America.
It is possible that your car lost oil for some reason unrelated to Honda's design or manufacturing and that caused your engine to fail. I certainly can't know that Honda is wrong about that. But, how come?
Also, get a witnessed statement from the last person to check your dipstick (time and date and notarized) and include it.
Keep cool. Get to the right people. Explain that you took care of your car and the engine failed NOT through your negligence.
Keep cool. Be PISSED but don't act pissed. Act reasonable, strong, willing to listen, but act firm in your believe that more than a dozen S2000 engines have failed in this manner and you won't accept their escaping their legal responsibility under the warranty without proof that someone else is responsible.
Many, perhaps most, of the #4 cylinder failures were low on oil when the car developed the tap-tap-tap that led to diagnosis. Mine was not and couple of others were not. While AHM seems to be blaming the #4 cylinder failure on low oil, I wonder if the oil goes low BECAUSE the #4 cylinder has failed. Certainly my #4 piston head was covered with oil blowing past the rings when my dealer first looked in.
EVERYBODY, YOU'VE GOT TO CHECK THE OIL LEVEL EVERY TIME YOU BUY GASOLINE AND DOCUMENT IT. I now keep the gasoline receipt and note the odometer reading, the number of miles since the last gasoline purchase, and the status of the dipstick. If I add oil, I note that too. Do it and do it at the time.
I don't believe doing this will prevent any engine failures. Well, I'm not sure it will. But we've got to get AHM to fix this problem. I know they are working on it. If they blame low oil when low oil is really the result and not the cause, we are all losers.
Concerning the oil idiot light not coming on, no one has seen that happen. These engines, in fact all Honda engines my dealer tells me, can have dangerously low oil with no idiot light warning. My dealer explained it as the difference between low oil pressure and low oil volume, but I must say, I didn't follow what he was talking about.
Concerning your engine failure not being covered by warranty, THIS IS A FIRST. cde had to fight to get his covered because he lost oil through a damaged HONDA BRAND oil filter. I think AHM was blaming the dealer and the dealer was blaming "road hazard" or something, but eventually AHM had his engine fixed and sorted it out between AHM and the dealer.
CHECK YOUR OIL EVERY TIME YOU BUY GASOLINE. It may not save your engine, but it might save you the cost of an $11,000 repair.
dhoward, private mail me if I can be more help. Find out if it was the #4 cylinder. If it was, you are in much better position to discuss this as manufacturing defect rather than user error. You might be able to contact Woodwork for advice. He works for AHM, is involved with the engines with failed #4 cylinders before they go back to Japan for further study. Woodwork monitors this board and posts occasionally. He may not be able to do anything for you, but he is honest and a huge s2000 fan. He probably understand the engineering of the F20c as well or better than anyone else in North America.
It is possible that your car lost oil for some reason unrelated to Honda's design or manufacturing and that caused your engine to fail. I certainly can't know that Honda is wrong about that. But, how come?
Also, get a witnessed statement from the last person to check your dipstick (time and date and notarized) and include it.
Keep cool. Get to the right people. Explain that you took care of your car and the engine failed NOT through your negligence.
Keep cool. Be PISSED but don't act pissed. Act reasonable, strong, willing to listen, but act firm in your believe that more than a dozen S2000 engines have failed in this manner and you won't accept their escaping their legal responsibility under the warranty without proof that someone else is responsible.
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 4,762
Likes: 1
From: Sheridan
When the local high tech performance shop decided to leave in the break-in oil rather than change it, did they bother to check the dipstick?
I hope so.
The guys who okayed the Challenger launch on 28 January 1986 also worked for a local high tech performance shop.
I hope so.
The guys who okayed the Challenger launch on 28 January 1986 also worked for a local high tech performance shop.
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,408
Likes: 0
From: Havre de Grace, Maryland
dhoward,
I would say that Barry has the correct approach. I have also experienced the #4 cyl problem in my MY2000. Do a search on this subject and you will get some very good background information.
We were all pissed when our S2000 developed the problem, but I think keeping a level head and being persistant prevailed.
Goodluck and I hope everything works out for you and the car.
I would say that Barry has the correct approach. I have also experienced the #4 cyl problem in my MY2000. Do a search on this subject and you will get some very good background information.
We were all pissed when our S2000 developed the problem, but I think keeping a level head and being persistant prevailed.
Goodluck and I hope everything works out for you and the car.
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 4,467
Likes: 3
From: Davie, FL
Originally posted by Barry WY Silver/Black '01
When the local high tech performance shop decided to leave in the break-in oil rather than change it, did they bother to check the dipstick?
I hope so.
The guys who okayed the Challenger launch on 28 January 1986 also worked for a local high tech performance shop.
When the local high tech performance shop decided to leave in the break-in oil rather than change it, did they bother to check the dipstick?
I hope so.
The guys who okayed the Challenger launch on 28 January 1986 also worked for a local high tech performance shop.
Your suggestion for checking oil level at every gasoline fillup is an excellent one, but the failure to do so should not by itself absolve Honda from responsibility in this matter. In fact, dhoward put on approximately 640 miles after the fluid check before the engine failure. In highway driving, that is only two tanks of gas! I don't think it is reasonable for an engine to go from a full oil level to "no oil" in 640 miles!
I have also learned that when the dealer reported "no oil" in the engine, what they really meant was that none showed on the dipstick
. It is conceivable that there is still somewhere around 4 quarts of oil in the engine without any registering on the stick. I think it is very improtant to have dhoward have an independent mechanic inspect the vehicle as soon as possible, and for that person to be present if the oil is drained or any further teardown is done. I also recommend that you keep a sample of the oil in case analysis is warranted. I think Blackstone labs is offering a deal on oil analyses to S2Ki members. https://www.s2ki.com/forums/showthread.php?...ight=blackstone
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 4,762
Likes: 1
From: Sheridan
Originally posted by CoralDoc
Your suggestion for checking oil level at every gasoline fillup is an excellent one, but the failure to do so should not by itself absolve Honda from responsibility in this matter.
Your suggestion for checking oil level at every gasoline fillup is an excellent one, but the failure to do so should not by itself absolve Honda from responsibility in this matter.
The trouble is that the owner's manual tells us to check the oil every time we buy gasoline. Additionally, AHM has told a number of the #4 cylinder victims that their engine failure was their fault for not checking the oil.
My advice to check the oil at every gasoline fillup is to prevent having LEGAL trouble. Honda thinks it is to prevent MECHANINCAL trouble, but I doubt it.
My #4 cylinder failed at 650 miles with full indicating on the dipstick. However, I got the tap-tap-tap when I was out cruising with my wife on 4 January a couple of miles from my dealership. As soon as I heard the sound, I took it in. Perhaps there were five miles on the car between sound developing and engine tear-down. If I had been a couple hundred miles from home, the sound was so innocuous, I would have continued home. Then I might have had "low oil" or "no oil" and AHM would have thought I was a careless driver who let his oil go to zero in 850 miles.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 45,695
Likes: 8,213
From: Mish-she-gan
CoralDoc, good advice.
I can't speak for anyone else but on my car the consumption is consistently using 1 quart every 1,700 miles. It used that much during the initial break-in period when I never VETC it (and I resisted for an additional 200 miles beyond what everyone recommended). It continues to use oil at the same rate now, now that I do VETC it. We all know that no two engines are identical but that's my experience.
As for maintaining a log and receipts every time I fill up and check the oil. No way. That's ok for those who wish to do so, but I refuse to do that. I will religiously check the oil, as both the manual and reasonableness dictate. But that's as far as I go.
If I have problems (please, no) and Honda does not stand behind their product -- look out. My patience would run thin FAST and I would get a junk-yard dog lawyer and make their frig'en life miserable. I'd be on the Today Show telling the world. But that's me. That kinder, gentler approach only works if someone on the other side is listening and cares. I would go up Honda's ladder but I'd do it as fast as possible, and I'd start at the very top if I had a name and phone number. There's no reason for this drag out.
I truly love this car but month after month I keep reading about engine failures and Honda dealership push backs. We all know this is crap. Damn it, it's time for the factory to step in and resolve these disputes before they become an issue on this board. I get mad just thinking about the crappy treatment they are giving the owners of this car who have experienced engine failures.
I can't speak for anyone else but on my car the consumption is consistently using 1 quart every 1,700 miles. It used that much during the initial break-in period when I never VETC it (and I resisted for an additional 200 miles beyond what everyone recommended). It continues to use oil at the same rate now, now that I do VETC it. We all know that no two engines are identical but that's my experience.
As for maintaining a log and receipts every time I fill up and check the oil. No way. That's ok for those who wish to do so, but I refuse to do that. I will religiously check the oil, as both the manual and reasonableness dictate. But that's as far as I go.
If I have problems (please, no) and Honda does not stand behind their product -- look out. My patience would run thin FAST and I would get a junk-yard dog lawyer and make their frig'en life miserable. I'd be on the Today Show telling the world. But that's me. That kinder, gentler approach only works if someone on the other side is listening and cares. I would go up Honda's ladder but I'd do it as fast as possible, and I'd start at the very top if I had a name and phone number. There's no reason for this drag out.
I truly love this car but month after month I keep reading about engine failures and Honda dealership push backs. We all know this is crap. Damn it, it's time for the factory to step in and resolve these disputes before they become an issue on this board. I get mad just thinking about the crappy treatment they are giving the owners of this car who have experienced engine failures.