Upshifting
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From: Hong Kong
Originally Posted by AssassinJN,Sep 16 2006, 04:26 PM
Or, double clutch going 1 - 2. Clutch in, shift to nuetral, clutch out, clutch in, shift to 2nd, clutch out. Or if that's too slow for you, skit the clutch on the 1-N part of the shift.
this is a joke right?Anyway, you don't need to shift at 5K in the city to drive the car smoothly ... or maybe I'm the odd one out there ...
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From: SoCal
Originally Posted by Ks320,Sep 16 2006, 11:56 AM
I feel that it's just your habit of timing -- which should apply to all manual transmission cars.
Sounds like your right foot is still on the gas when you are putting the clutch in; let go of your right foot a little earlier. You shouldn't have to ride the clutch when you are just shifting up. You should be able to let go of your left foot pretty quickly (i.e. not to the point where you are dumping the clutch like you do on a drag strip, but fast enough that you don't need to pay attention to your left foot) and still get a smooth shift.
This car has close gear ratios and a relatively light flywheel compared to the ones in most cars out there. If anything, you should be shifting a little quicker in the S2000 than in other cars.
Fortunately, cars in general have their gears, clutch, shifter and flywheel designed properly. You shouldn't have to purposely shift faster or slower. The gear ratios, shifter's throw, clutch travel and flywheel weight (momentum/inertia???) should allow all these parts "synchronize" properly without having you to "think" about the shifting, so that you are spending your efforts on the road conditions.
Anyway ... try letting go of the gas a little earlier, and see how it works out for ya.
Sounds like your right foot is still on the gas when you are putting the clutch in; let go of your right foot a little earlier. You shouldn't have to ride the clutch when you are just shifting up. You should be able to let go of your left foot pretty quickly (i.e. not to the point where you are dumping the clutch like you do on a drag strip, but fast enough that you don't need to pay attention to your left foot) and still get a smooth shift.
This car has close gear ratios and a relatively light flywheel compared to the ones in most cars out there. If anything, you should be shifting a little quicker in the S2000 than in other cars.
Fortunately, cars in general have their gears, clutch, shifter and flywheel designed properly. You shouldn't have to purposely shift faster or slower. The gear ratios, shifter's throw, clutch travel and flywheel weight (momentum/inertia???) should allow all these parts "synchronize" properly without having you to "think" about the shifting, so that you are spending your efforts on the road conditions.
Anyway ... try letting go of the gas a little earlier, and see how it works out for ya.
I noticed that I used to have that exact same problem until I realized that my foot was still on the gas for a split second when I would disengage the clutch. Ever since, I make sure to take my foot off the gas completely a split second BEFORE I disengage the clutch, and my shifts have been buttery smooth. You shouldn't have to pause or slow down your shifts at all in this car
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From: Dry Branch
Originally Posted by Ks320,Sep 16 2006, 06:58 PM
Anyway, you don't need to shift at 5K in the city to drive the car smoothly ... or maybe I'm the odd one out there ...
I've actually been told that if you shift below 4000 RPM you're lugging the engine, but all that proves is that the person who says it doesn't know how to drive. Road and traffic conditions are infinitely variable, and shift points should match the conditions.
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I shift at 5K because I like to shift at 5K. Nothing more. Shifting up is as smooth as your pedal work. If it's not smooth going up the gears, you need to work on it. This waiting to shift stuff's for the birds. No modern car needs it.
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From: Dry Branch
Originally Posted by diabolus2k,Sep 16 2006, 08:27 PM
I noticed that I used to have that exact same problem until I realized that my foot was still on the gas for a split second when I would disengage the clutch. Ever since, I make sure to take my foot off the gas completely a split second BEFORE I disengage the clutch, and my shifts have been buttery smooth. You shouldn't have to pause or slow down your shifts at all in this carThere is no one correct way to shift, though there are lots of ways to shift badly. I don't want to seem like I'm picking at you, but are you sure you are releasing the gas "completely" a second BEFORE you disengage the clutch? If you actually do that, the car will start to decelerate, and the driveline will probably take a bit of a shock when you push in the clutch. I find it very hard to analyze what I do when I'm shifting quickly, and when I try to watch what I'm doing so I can describe it to people here on S2kI, the process of thinking about it screws up the way I shift. You may be shifting a little differently when you're "observing."
Not that it's necessarily the only way to shift smoothly and quickly, but I'll go through the process the way I do it, and I think you'll see the logic behind the procedure.
When I'm ready to shift, I start releasing the throttle and depressing the clutch, at the same time. The clutch does not release until the pedal is about 1/2 way up, and I time my release of the throttle so that there is zero acceleration (or deceleration) at the moment the clutch disengages. Think of a string going from the clutch pedal to the throttle pedal, so that as one goes down the other has to come up. The transition from acceleration to no acceleration should be quick, but so smooth that a passenger will hardly notice. ALSO, as the car reaches zero acceleration and the clutch starts to disengage the transmission reaches a no-load condition, and will slip out of gear with minimal effort. As the transmission slips into neutral the clutch reaches the point where it is fully released (not pedal to the floor, but just a little over half way to the floor). Once in neutral I push gently against the shifter until the revs drop enough for the transmission to slip into the next gear with minimal effort. The next gear will engage at the point where the revs match road speed, but at this point the feet are already going the other way, clutch up and throttle down, and the clutch engages (very quickly) at the point where eigine speed once again matches road speed. It sounds like a long process that would take a lot of time, but the time it takes depends on the shift point. If you're shifting at 4k it has to happen a lot slower than it has to happen at 9k, and at 9k it happens so quickly that if you think about it while you're doing it you'll be too slow. Done this way, the shift requires minimal pressure on the shifter, and the car experiences minimal weight transfer, so you can shift mid-turn without upsetting the car AT ALL. The reapplication of the throttle can be quicker if you want to get a little extra nudge from the flywheel inertia as you release the clutch, and on a quick 1-2 shift at redline the S will chirp the back tires rewardingly.
Smooth driving may be anal (as some have suggested) but it is the mark of a superior driver who has better control over his car.
Is it NECESSAEY to have perfect timing? Well, it does help, becasue it makes shifting a lot easier, both on the driver, the passenger, and the hardware. But it is NOT necessary. As long as there isn't excessive slipping of the clutch, and as long as you're not jerking the car (or passengers) around when you shift, then you're smooth enough. If you drive hard, and particularly if you want to try to learn to push the car to the limits of its performance envelop, learning to handle the controls smoothly is important, but for anything else, it's not critical.
To the OP, it is all about timing, and if you're not holding the gas pedal down slightly, the revs should drop pretty quickly. What happens when you shift at 7,000 RPM?
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From: Dry Branch
Originally Posted by Ek9,Sep 16 2006, 08:55 PM
I shift at 5K because I like to shift at 5K. Nothing more. Shifting up is as smooth as your pedal work. If it's not smooth going up the gears, you need to work on it. This waiting to shift stuff's for the birds. No modern car needs it.
"pedal work" - Good name for it. Do you really shift from fifth to sixth at 5,000 RPM?
That's a little over 80 MPH. What if conditions don't allow that kind of speed safely?
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Originally Posted by RED MX5,Sep 16 2006, 06:17 PM
I agree; The OP is probably doing something to make the engine speed drop more slowly than it should.
There is no one correct way to shift, though there are lots of ways to shift badly. I don't want to seem like I'm picking at you, but are you sure you are releasing the gas "completely" a second BEFORE you disengage the clutch? If you actually do that, the car will start to decelerate, and the driveline will probably take a bit of a shock when you push in the clutch. I find it very hard to analyze what I do when I'm shifting quickly, and when I try to watch what I'm doing so I can describe it to people here on S2kI, the process of thinking about it screws up the way I shift. You may be shifting a little differently when you're "observing."
Not that it's necessarily the only way to shift smoothly and quickly, but I'll go through the process the way I do it, and I think you'll see the logic behind the procedure.
When I'm ready to shift, I start releasing the throttle and depressing the clutch, at the same time. The clutch does not release until the pedal is about 1/2 way up, and I time my release of the throttle so that there is zero acceleration (or deceleration) at the moment the clutch disengages. Think of a string going from the clutch pedal to the throttle pedal, so that as one goes down the other has to come up. The transition from acceleration to no acceleration should be quick, but so smooth that a passenger will hardly notice. ALSO, as the car reaches zero acceleration and the clutch starts to disengage the transmission reaches a no-load condition, and will slip out of gear with minimal effort. As the transmission slips into neutral the clutch reaches the point where it is fully released (not pedal to the floor, but just a little over half way to the floor). Once in neutral I push gently against the shifter until the revs drop enough for the transmission to slip into the next gear with minimal effort. The next gear will engage at the point where the revs match road speed, but at this point the feet are already going the other way, clutch up and throttle down, and the clutch engages (very quickly) at the point where eigine speed once again matches road speed. It sounds like a long process that would take a lot of time, but the time it takes depends on the shift point. If you're shifting at 4k it has to happen a lot slower than it has to happen at 9k, and at 9k it happens so quickly that if you think about it while you're doing it you'll be too slow. Done this way, the shift requires minimal pressure on the shifter, and the car experiences minimal weight transfer, so you can shift mid-turn without upsetting the car AT ALL. The reapplication of the throttle can be quicker if you want to get a little extra nudge from the flywheel inertia as you release the clutch, and on a quick 1-2 shift at redline the S will chirp the back tires rewardingly.
Smooth driving may be anal (as some have suggested) but it is the mark of a superior driver who has better control over his car.
Is it NECESSAEY to have perfect timing? Well, it does help, becasue it makes shifting a lot easier, both on the driver, the passenger, and the hardware. But it is NOT necessary. As long as there isn't excessive slipping of the clutch, and as long as you're not jerking the car (or passengers) around when you shift, then you're smooth enough. If you drive hard, and particularly if you want to try to learn to push the car to the limits of its performance envelop, learning to handle the controls smoothly is important, but for anything else, it's not critical.
To the OP, it is all about timing, and if you're not holding the gas pedal down slightly, the revs should drop pretty quickly. What happens when you shift at 7,000 RPM?
There is no one correct way to shift, though there are lots of ways to shift badly. I don't want to seem like I'm picking at you, but are you sure you are releasing the gas "completely" a second BEFORE you disengage the clutch? If you actually do that, the car will start to decelerate, and the driveline will probably take a bit of a shock when you push in the clutch. I find it very hard to analyze what I do when I'm shifting quickly, and when I try to watch what I'm doing so I can describe it to people here on S2kI, the process of thinking about it screws up the way I shift. You may be shifting a little differently when you're "observing."
Not that it's necessarily the only way to shift smoothly and quickly, but I'll go through the process the way I do it, and I think you'll see the logic behind the procedure.
When I'm ready to shift, I start releasing the throttle and depressing the clutch, at the same time. The clutch does not release until the pedal is about 1/2 way up, and I time my release of the throttle so that there is zero acceleration (or deceleration) at the moment the clutch disengages. Think of a string going from the clutch pedal to the throttle pedal, so that as one goes down the other has to come up. The transition from acceleration to no acceleration should be quick, but so smooth that a passenger will hardly notice. ALSO, as the car reaches zero acceleration and the clutch starts to disengage the transmission reaches a no-load condition, and will slip out of gear with minimal effort. As the transmission slips into neutral the clutch reaches the point where it is fully released (not pedal to the floor, but just a little over half way to the floor). Once in neutral I push gently against the shifter until the revs drop enough for the transmission to slip into the next gear with minimal effort. The next gear will engage at the point where the revs match road speed, but at this point the feet are already going the other way, clutch up and throttle down, and the clutch engages (very quickly) at the point where eigine speed once again matches road speed. It sounds like a long process that would take a lot of time, but the time it takes depends on the shift point. If you're shifting at 4k it has to happen a lot slower than it has to happen at 9k, and at 9k it happens so quickly that if you think about it while you're doing it you'll be too slow. Done this way, the shift requires minimal pressure on the shifter, and the car experiences minimal weight transfer, so you can shift mid-turn without upsetting the car AT ALL. The reapplication of the throttle can be quicker if you want to get a little extra nudge from the flywheel inertia as you release the clutch, and on a quick 1-2 shift at redline the S will chirp the back tires rewardingly.
Smooth driving may be anal (as some have suggested) but it is the mark of a superior driver who has better control over his car.
Is it NECESSAEY to have perfect timing? Well, it does help, becasue it makes shifting a lot easier, both on the driver, the passenger, and the hardware. But it is NOT necessary. As long as there isn't excessive slipping of the clutch, and as long as you're not jerking the car (or passengers) around when you shift, then you're smooth enough. If you drive hard, and particularly if you want to try to learn to push the car to the limits of its performance envelop, learning to handle the controls smoothly is important, but for anything else, it's not critical.
To the OP, it is all about timing, and if you're not holding the gas pedal down slightly, the revs should drop pretty quickly. What happens when you shift at 7,000 RPM?
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In a sense, you do "rev match" an upshift. The OP is finding out what happens when they don't match up very well. He gets that "Hop-along-Cassidy" type of transition into the next gear. It doesn't matter what rpm you shift at. You should be able to learn how to make it smooth with practice. You should be able to shift at near idle or at redline. It's what you do after the shift that makes for roughness or smoothness. That "pedal work" that EK spoke of is what takes care of any bad rev matching. It's how you release the clutch and bring the throttle back into play, that makes for a smooth shift.
Shifting at near idle rpm isn't going to "lug" the engine if you don't mash the gas right after. On the right road surface, you can still transition smoothly up in mph without lugging. Of course, you won't be able to do this going uphill (too much load for the amount of available torque).
Shifting at near redline doesn't mean you have to continue to accelerate. You can rev match into the next gear and simply stay at that road speed for that gear, shift again and stay at the same road speed for that gear and so on and it can all be done "smoothly".
Smoothness is only rpm dependent if you don't understand the other things that go with shifting.
Shifting at near idle rpm isn't going to "lug" the engine if you don't mash the gas right after. On the right road surface, you can still transition smoothly up in mph without lugging. Of course, you won't be able to do this going uphill (too much load for the amount of available torque).
Shifting at near redline doesn't mean you have to continue to accelerate. You can rev match into the next gear and simply stay at that road speed for that gear, shift again and stay at the same road speed for that gear and so on and it can all be done "smoothly".
Smoothness is only rpm dependent if you don't understand the other things that go with shifting.
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From: Dry Branch
Originally Posted by xviper,Sep 20 2006, 03:52 PM
"Hop-along-Cassidy"
I always wondered where Hoppy got his nickname.I guess he was much better with the horses than he was with a stick shift.