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Joined: Jul 2002
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From: knoxville, TN
[QUOTE]Originally posted by cdelena
[B]
I am sorry you went off the cliff based upon your misunderstanding of the Mugen statement that is in fact known thoughout the industry. The 1% gain for each drop of 5 degrees is Celsius, not Fahrenheit (the difference between freezing and 100F is 37C or ~6% power gain) and it is all about INTAKE AIR TEMP, not the temperature of different surfaces. I would doubt the shield has a huge difference on the temperature of the air moving rapidly through intake, although the Mugen intake drawing air from in front of the radiator instead of behind it can show a large reduction in IAT.
[B]
I am sorry you went off the cliff based upon your misunderstanding of the Mugen statement that is in fact known thoughout the industry. The 1% gain for each drop of 5 degrees is Celsius, not Fahrenheit (the difference between freezing and 100F is 37C or ~6% power gain) and it is all about INTAKE AIR TEMP, not the temperature of different surfaces. I would doubt the shield has a huge difference on the temperature of the air moving rapidly through intake, although the Mugen intake drawing air from in front of the radiator instead of behind it can show a large reduction in IAT.
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Joined: Jan 2002
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From: Land of the landeaus
[QUOTE]Originally posted by cdelena
I am sorry you went off the cliff based upon your misunderstanding of the Mugen statement that is in fact known thoughout the industry.
It's also known "throughout the industry" that a sucker is born every minute which might explain why some folks spend half their paycheck on Powerball tickets. I'm sure Mugen's intentions were honorable...hey, they have a $1200 intake they want to sell but others would be wise to avoid exchanging green matter for grey matter...but then again, maybe that's why the wallet is placed so close to the ass? I would hedge a bet that not one owner of their intake thought by installing it, they would become 10% faster.
Let's examine Mugen's claims a bit closer shall we? You wrote:
The 1% gain for each drop of 5 degrees is Celsius, not Fahrenheit (the difference between freezing and 100F is 37C or ~6% power gain)
Mugen writes: "Inducing heated air of 30C will also cause the power down of about 10%." Hmmm, we have our first discrepency here. According to Mugen, the total loss for 30C would be 10%, not 6% as you state.
Here's what I state:
If heated air of 30C reduces power by 10%, then it should also be assumed using their logic, that the introduction of cooler air by 30C would increase engine power 10%. That's not going to happen. For every 10F of difference in ambient air introduced into the engine or intake, if you will, expect a 1-hp deviation in performance. IOW, 30C = 86F or 8.6hp within a 0-86F temp spread which is a far cry from 20+ hp deviations Mugen wants you to believe.
... and it is all about INTAKE AIR TEMP, not the temperature of different surfaces. Well...yeah. Is this new knowledge?
In the case of ALL S2000 engine bays (Mugen-equipped ones as well) where do you suppose intake air is coming from...some magical depository of cold air isolated from below the vehicle? For short ram intakes especially, the same air that heats the outside of a CAI tube is heating the air which goes INTO the CAI tube. Good lord, this isn't rocket science. As is the case with most intake research you'll find, intake temps at speed begin to fall as the speed of the car increases but at idle, any device or product which helps to isolate temps away from the intake is a valuable modification, hence my favorable assessment of Nick's carbon fiber heat shield. It works.
I would doubt the shield has a huge difference on the temperature of the air moving rapidly through intake, although the Mugen intake drawing air from in front of the radiator instead of behind it can show a large reduction in IAT.
I don't recall anyone writing that the heat shield is an alternative to a ram air system. On the contrary, it is a perfect addition to one. Its primary function is to reduce heat soak conditions which affect all engine bays whether the filter is isolated or not. No, the heat shield won't improve cfm ratings nor has anyone claimed such. I'm not sure why you're addressing the heat shield in defense of the Mugen, they are two entirely different products.
Putting Mugen engineering in the same corner as 'snake oil' stuff is just showing your ignorance.
I'm not doubting their CAI (as well as other Mugen products) are well engineered and I have stated that on numerous occasions but their PR department needs to throttle back on their claims don't ya think? I said "literature." If YOU can't separate the sales pitch from the science, then it's YOUR ignorance (or gullibility) that is on display here.
Calling on Perry Mason to close this case....
I wrote earlier that for every 10-degrees of intake temp deviation, expect a 1hp difference in performance. According to memory, 10C is equal to 50F. Using this scale and my reasoning, a drop of 30F of IAT would result in a gain of roughly 5 wheel horsepower.
"Another" respected tuning authority, Hondata, states the following when discussing their heat shield gasket: "Around town, testing has shown an average drop of around 10 degrees C (50F) which is good for around 3 percent power increase." Three percent of 200hp (est crank horsepower) is 6hp which is only one pony above my own estimate but 14hp under Mugen's. WTF?
Bottom line:
3% or 10%. You decide. 6hp difference with the Mugen or 20hp, which sounds more reasonable? Though truth be told, I don't honestly think Mugen believes their intake is capable of producing 20hp. Do they?
Better yet, let's ask Mugen CAI owners if they received this magical infusion of 20 Funny Cides upon install. Bottom line...it's a gorgeous intake and anyone lucky enough to have one sitting in their engine bay scores points with me on the asthetics but let's get back to reality. At speed, it's no more productive than an AEM, Injen or PRM. Sorry, but I'm not jumping on the Mugen PR train so willingly as you. They are NOT the burning bush of automotive authority while all other tuners producing contrary information are wrong. If you want to reward their coffers by cutting the check for this magical intake, feel free but at idle, deep down inside you know damn well it's nothing more than a $1200 heat shield.
I'll take Nick's and pocket the $1050.
I am sorry you went off the cliff based upon your misunderstanding of the Mugen statement that is in fact known thoughout the industry.
It's also known "throughout the industry" that a sucker is born every minute which might explain why some folks spend half their paycheck on Powerball tickets. I'm sure Mugen's intentions were honorable...hey, they have a $1200 intake they want to sell but others would be wise to avoid exchanging green matter for grey matter...but then again, maybe that's why the wallet is placed so close to the ass? I would hedge a bet that not one owner of their intake thought by installing it, they would become 10% faster.
Let's examine Mugen's claims a bit closer shall we? You wrote:
The 1% gain for each drop of 5 degrees is Celsius, not Fahrenheit (the difference between freezing and 100F is 37C or ~6% power gain)
Mugen writes: "Inducing heated air of 30C will also cause the power down of about 10%." Hmmm, we have our first discrepency here. According to Mugen, the total loss for 30C would be 10%, not 6% as you state.
Here's what I state:
If heated air of 30C reduces power by 10%, then it should also be assumed using their logic, that the introduction of cooler air by 30C would increase engine power 10%. That's not going to happen. For every 10F of difference in ambient air introduced into the engine or intake, if you will, expect a 1-hp deviation in performance. IOW, 30C = 86F or 8.6hp within a 0-86F temp spread which is a far cry from 20+ hp deviations Mugen wants you to believe.
... and it is all about INTAKE AIR TEMP, not the temperature of different surfaces. Well...yeah. Is this new knowledge?
In the case of ALL S2000 engine bays (Mugen-equipped ones as well) where do you suppose intake air is coming from...some magical depository of cold air isolated from below the vehicle? For short ram intakes especially, the same air that heats the outside of a CAI tube is heating the air which goes INTO the CAI tube. Good lord, this isn't rocket science. As is the case with most intake research you'll find, intake temps at speed begin to fall as the speed of the car increases but at idle, any device or product which helps to isolate temps away from the intake is a valuable modification, hence my favorable assessment of Nick's carbon fiber heat shield. It works. I would doubt the shield has a huge difference on the temperature of the air moving rapidly through intake, although the Mugen intake drawing air from in front of the radiator instead of behind it can show a large reduction in IAT.
I don't recall anyone writing that the heat shield is an alternative to a ram air system. On the contrary, it is a perfect addition to one. Its primary function is to reduce heat soak conditions which affect all engine bays whether the filter is isolated or not. No, the heat shield won't improve cfm ratings nor has anyone claimed such. I'm not sure why you're addressing the heat shield in defense of the Mugen, they are two entirely different products.
Putting Mugen engineering in the same corner as 'snake oil' stuff is just showing your ignorance.
I'm not doubting their CAI (as well as other Mugen products) are well engineered and I have stated that on numerous occasions but their PR department needs to throttle back on their claims don't ya think? I said "literature." If YOU can't separate the sales pitch from the science, then it's YOUR ignorance (or gullibility) that is on display here.
Calling on Perry Mason to close this case....
I wrote earlier that for every 10-degrees of intake temp deviation, expect a 1hp difference in performance. According to memory, 10C is equal to 50F. Using this scale and my reasoning, a drop of 30F of IAT would result in a gain of roughly 5 wheel horsepower.
"Another" respected tuning authority, Hondata, states the following when discussing their heat shield gasket: "Around town, testing has shown an average drop of around 10 degrees C (50F) which is good for around 3 percent power increase." Three percent of 200hp (est crank horsepower) is 6hp which is only one pony above my own estimate but 14hp under Mugen's. WTF?
Bottom line:
3% or 10%. You decide. 6hp difference with the Mugen or 20hp, which sounds more reasonable? Though truth be told, I don't honestly think Mugen believes their intake is capable of producing 20hp. Do they?
Better yet, let's ask Mugen CAI owners if they received this magical infusion of 20 Funny Cides upon install. Bottom line...it's a gorgeous intake and anyone lucky enough to have one sitting in their engine bay scores points with me on the asthetics but let's get back to reality. At speed, it's no more productive than an AEM, Injen or PRM. Sorry, but I'm not jumping on the Mugen PR train so willingly as you. They are NOT the burning bush of automotive authority while all other tuners producing contrary information are wrong. If you want to reward their coffers by cutting the check for this magical intake, feel free but at idle, deep down inside you know damn well it's nothing more than a $1200 heat shield.
I'll take Nick's and pocket the $1050.
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 4,398
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From: Partwhoresville
Okay russ, so you are saying every mugen equipped S2000 owner is a focking sucker? They spent half their paycheck for garbage over rated products. Did i forget to mention the that Mugen to Honda is like Acura to Honda. They literally eat dinner with eachother every night. They dont own a wind tunnel testing facility just for shits and giggles. If you want to call the bluff that Mugen rips people off and all their stuff is junk, call Scott at Kingmotorsports and tell him. I dont understand how you can get so technical about it, didnt you just spend like $200 make a short ram intake ???? $75 RS Akimoto filter??? Just like the PRM. Short Ram intakes are different that CAI. CAI draw air from the bottom of the car, cooler than the engine bay. Yes, CAI air gets warmer as it reaches the throttle body because of the metal CAI pipes being in the engine. All the other short ram intakes suck air that is in the engine bay. Including the PRM..Only the comptech is ducted to get air from the fender. I dont doubt that that CF plate works, but your logic for picking at Mugen is nonsense.
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 9,210
Likes: 7
From: WA
Rick announced some new products which look good, mentioned a Mugen statement and Russ wants to tell you their intake is not worth the money. I want you to know that I have tried four intakes and the Mugen is the one I will leave on my car. As for the heat shield, it is a fine looking piece but is no substitute for a CAI.
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 74
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From: Los Gatos, CA
I am glad that Rick's will be carrying these products. I recently placed an order directly with ZTEC and they have not been responsive in getting back to me with any tracking info. Now that orders are going to be filled by Rick's good customer service should be available. I sure hope that my order doesn't lost in the cracks in this conversion. I hope that ZTEC stands behind both their products and customers during the conversion.