I'm not going FI for several reasons.

1) it's an expensive prospect (to do it properly)
2) long-term reliability and durability of drivetrain are suspect
3) it would upset the perfect balance (power/handling) of the car
4) voids the warranty (extended warranty in my case)
5) don't want the car to be considered "rice"
6) prefer a high-tech NA engine because anybody can add FI to an engine to get big HP
7) I'm not a good enough driver to handle that much power in a car this small

I have considered FI for this car in the past though. If I were to do it, it would be with Comptech's supercharger kit because its power delivery most closely resembles stock (but just raised).

Obviously I'm not against modifying the car. I have done a few mods but they are all fairly simple and easily reversible.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pinky
[B]DING DING DING!!!!!

 

Interesting thread. Would have read it sooner, but the title didn't grab my attention as anything car related - need to teach you some PR/marketing skills Greg...

As many probably know, I'm in the NA camp. Before the S2000 I owned a highly modified NA Acura Integra and at present, besides the S2000, I also own a wicked little supercharged CRX Si. So I've been down both roads.

IMO, the pros of forced induction are quite clear. More power than you could ever hope to obtain from a normally aspirated power plant of the same size. When we are limited on displacement (as we are with the F20C, there isn't much room to add cc's without comprimising rev range, etc.), FI is really the only way to go for _huge_ power gains. Additionally, FI often allows you to support more midrange torque than you can with a normally aspirated power plant of similar hp levels, especially if they are of the same displacement. Witness the last generation Mitsu Eclipse or the current Suby WRX - both FI 2 liters with lots more torque than our S2Ks, but less hp. Initially, the cost/hp and the ease of getting those gains is also easier with FI, although the committment of startup $$ on a formerly NA powerplant can be formidable.

The disadvantages are equally clear. More hp means more stress on anything that comes in contact with that power. From the spark plugs to the exhaust system, you're asking more of all the systems in the car. If you go far enough, you 'll have to upgrade everything. Nothing wrong with that, but if I have to build a completely new car, _I_ would prefer to build something cool like an Ultima GTR. With more power (however you choose to obtain it), even with all the proper mods, you also increase your risk of failure. Many of the mods you make can mitigate that risk, but you can only turn the rubber band so tight. This, I unfortunately know, despite taking what I consider a more thorough approach to charging a normally aspirated Honda engine than most folks. Additionally, each type of FI has its disadvantages. Centrifugal SCs don't do much for you down low. On a large displacement engine, that's o.k., but on a small engine like the F20C, you're missing half the benefit of FI. Most positive displacement blowers (Roots, Lysolm, etc.) aren't that efficient, so you're not getting maximum bang for each psi you create. Turbos almost invariably foul up the throttle response, something I have a hard time with. You can drive around it, as the great Porsche 917 through 962 drivers all learned to do, and win, but given a choice I'd prefer to not have to. I recently have been spending a lot of time in a VW 1.8T car. Despite the motoring press' statements that the engine is virtually lag free, I am appalled by the soft throttle response, quite notable turbo lag and elastic rpm behavior - all from an engine with a turbo too small to do much good past 5000 rpm on a 1.8 liter! Maybe I am jaded by the rather crisp response of the F20C, or the neck snapping response of my SC'd engine, but that's the way I see it.

We are all products of our experiences, and mine say the following:

1. More hp means more breakage, even if you take all the precautions - this applies to NA and FI, but since FI tends to make more power....
2. Never go FI on an NA engine you can't afford to replace. My CRX engines cost me $250 each and I get about 25k-30k miles from them - no problem, I'm not ready to replace an entire F20C yet though.
2a. Off topic for this thread, but same principle and useful - never race a car you can't afford to wreck, that's why I didn't buy a 911 or somesuch.
3. Always be clear on your application and plan/mod accordingly. Going FI on a formerly NA engine does not serve you well for roadracing without lots and lots of tuning (and usually learning from expensive mistakes).
4. Do it right. That means no boost dependent FPRs, no tricking the ECU to retard timing. Spend the money and get a good control system. Yeah, the kludge mods will work on the street, but push the car one time too many and you'll hear expensive noises. Not a matter of if, but when - maybe you'll get lucky and sell the car before it breaks :-) That perhaps is one of the key things about staying NA. The control systems are already set to cope with the engine.
5. Consider the palette you're starting with. Going FI on one of the trickest NA powerplants to ever be sold in a production car is not the best choice. Doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't do it, just that it will be tougher and more expensive.

Most importantly, never forget that variety is the spice of life. And be glad that most of us live in places where we are free to make the mods we want (and make the money we need to make those mods :-). To each their own and damn lucky that it is that way. And a warning for all those NA folks, when an FI S2000 blows by you on the straight, telling yourself that "he'll break down sooner than me" won't make you feel any better. What he's really doing is just using up the grins in the car at a faster rate - when you get to the end you'll both have had a hell of a lot of fun.

UL

 

That was beautiful. ...seriously.


Im stuck in the middle. I currently have an mugen IHE combo, but am stuck on what to get next. Either a SC...or a mugen ECU. Its very hard listening to everyone state very good points for both sides. I seem to be more interested in going in a straight line, however I am in love with the crisp throttle response of the S2k. I guess that is what makes me love the car so damn much. oh yeah..and the vtec as well.


so if FI means that the Throttle response will be lessened by adding FI, then I just might go for an NA setup ultimately.
also, Ive never been on the twisties such as willow springs and such.


perhaps I should try that first,.....then choose.

 

That was a very excellent summary there, UL, I would expect nothing less from you. Trust me, I'm working on my PR/marketing skills, I need to!

Team Hybrid, one of the things that is altered, obviously, much more so with FI is the power delivery of the car. I have driven Comptech s/c'd car and it's got balls, but the balls are up top. Now this can present a problem say, as you enter an open sweeper (on a race course, of course) and you start leaning on the throttle a little to keep the car balanced, then the s/c or the tubo spools up, you have a sudden and different situation than you would have with just a slightly modified NA set up. This can result in ugly situations that you just wouldn't find in NA set ups. I could provide more situations where this could be bad, but you get the idea. Sudden onsets of boost or boost accompanied by the kick of VTEC engaging change things, and unless you are really prepared, it could get ugly.

This is, obviously, going to be a factor more so in road courses than in a straight line. If you want straight line performance out of the S2000, you either have to be satisified with it out of the box (and for most people, it's fine) or you have to go FI to really push the envelope. The current crop NA mods, IMO, won't yield anywhere near that amount of power. And my car has a lot of Mugen stuff, including ECU, it's noticeably faster and much more aggressive than stock, but it's not FI fast by any stretch. But with cams and head work, maybe it will approach 280-290hp one day, but that may be a dream...

Anyway, another brilliant post by UL...I am looking forward to raising a glass with you in January in Monterey!

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gregstevens
[B]Anyway, another brilliant post by UL...I am looking forward to raising a glass with you in January in Monterey!

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gregstevens
[B]That was a very excellent summary there, UL, I would expect nothing less from you.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Team Hybrid
[B]


Greg, is the throttle response the same with a supercharger? Im assuming so, since I heard that retarding the ignition timing on the S2 with the Comptech unit is un necessary.

 

Hey Guys,

The S2000 is the best cornering machine that I had ever driven. (not absolute speed in concern)
Our F20C is responsive with your right foot and linear.
That's the fun of the car.(driving enjoyment)

But wait, have you ever want more power when you need to power out a corner to chase some
4WD EVO 7 or STI WRX? Supercharing and turbo is the answer.
Although I had not been able to test a FI S2000, according to the report here the FI S2000 have
quite linear power and torque output through the whole rpm range. That's what I like, linear reponsive
power curve like a N/A car). You will never have enough hp on the straight. If the FI car had turbo lag or
non-linear output then I will back off. It ruins the characteristic of the S2000.

But if the FI car is like a turbo porsche(linear power with no lag) Why not blow it if you got the $$?

So far the reliability of those FI setup is quite good. Nobody had blown up their FI F20C yet.

If nobody stole my S2000, I will definitly turbocharge it.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by realthing
[B]This talk about Soichiro Honda thinking that FI was 'dishonourable'? - wrong.

Remember why Honda dropped out of F1 those years back. They banned Turbos.