Why engine mods make no sense
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 11,615
Likes: 1
From: North Richland Hills, TX
5% based on a 20% drivetrain loss, which seems pretty high. Standard loss for the Supra is 15-16%, and it's MUCH beefier (should mean higher frictional losses). Use 15% and you get 247HP, +2.9%.
While it's hard to get sig. extra HP out of these engines w/o resorting to forced aspirations, some folks just like having that extra edge or enjoy a more aggressive engine sound...nothing wrong w/ that!
My prior car was very highly modded to the tune of 50% HP over stock...it was pretty reliable, but had it's quirks. I'm enjoying the hassle-free stock powertrain experience, for now anyway. It's ironic that every successive car I get swings from modified to (nearly) stock, I guess I just can't conclusively decide which is better!
While it's hard to get sig. extra HP out of these engines w/o resorting to forced aspirations, some folks just like having that extra edge or enjoy a more aggressive engine sound...nothing wrong w/ that!
My prior car was very highly modded to the tune of 50% HP over stock...it was pretty reliable, but had it's quirks. I'm enjoying the hassle-free stock powertrain experience, for now anyway. It's ironic that every successive car I get swings from modified to (nearly) stock, I guess I just can't conclusively decide which is better!
Banned
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,712
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From: Chicago
I love these threads...
I think we can all agree that bolt-on mods aren't going to do much for the car interms of power output, unless you go FI.
Funny no one has mentioned suspension or brake upgrades. The car can be bettered by leaps and bounds with these upgrades. By adding brake ducts, upgraded brake fluid and better pads increases the braking capability greatly for a cost of less than an exhaust system.
The addition of a larger front sway bar also increase the handling envelope of the car greatly. If you go to upgraded suspension systems (shocks) the car is further developed.
I, personally, don't like to spend on mods with little to no performance gains. Look at my sig., all of these mods increase the performance of the car. The biggest question is the exhaust, but that adds midrange torque, loses weight and sounds better than stock.
To mod or not to mod is your personal choice. However, 30-40 years from now (as Bieg as said and others) people will be showing their S2000's and the stock cars (or cars that appear stock) will be winning those shows. Trends in appearance come and go, but the stock S2000 is a great looking car and will be for quite sometime. Due to the affiliation, I think Mugen parts will be those that are looked at as "acceptable" mods. Flame me if you wish, but I attend the biggest and best concours in the world each year (along with numerous others) and "stock" always wins. The S2000 will make quite a mark in automotive history with it's classic roadster look and amazing performance package. That said, is this car an investment - NO WAY. But will people still be interested in the car 30 years from now - YOU BET.
I think we can all agree that bolt-on mods aren't going to do much for the car interms of power output, unless you go FI.
Funny no one has mentioned suspension or brake upgrades. The car can be bettered by leaps and bounds with these upgrades. By adding brake ducts, upgraded brake fluid and better pads increases the braking capability greatly for a cost of less than an exhaust system.
The addition of a larger front sway bar also increase the handling envelope of the car greatly. If you go to upgraded suspension systems (shocks) the car is further developed.
I, personally, don't like to spend on mods with little to no performance gains. Look at my sig., all of these mods increase the performance of the car. The biggest question is the exhaust, but that adds midrange torque, loses weight and sounds better than stock.
To mod or not to mod is your personal choice. However, 30-40 years from now (as Bieg as said and others) people will be showing their S2000's and the stock cars (or cars that appear stock) will be winning those shows. Trends in appearance come and go, but the stock S2000 is a great looking car and will be for quite sometime. Due to the affiliation, I think Mugen parts will be those that are looked at as "acceptable" mods. Flame me if you wish, but I attend the biggest and best concours in the world each year (along with numerous others) and "stock" always wins. The S2000 will make quite a mark in automotive history with it's classic roadster look and amazing performance package. That said, is this car an investment - NO WAY. But will people still be interested in the car 30 years from now - YOU BET.
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 594
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From: Desoto
Greg you posted your gain which just happened to match SEV's stock output, proving one of 2 things... dynos by their nature have so much varience that comparisons are not valid... or you(or your sponser) spent a ton of money for little improvement. I would really like to see yours and Sev's car dynoed back to back on the same dyno to really compare the cars. Drivability gains and estetics(sp) on the other hand, while entirely subjective may justify the investment.
As far as brakes and suspension upgrades or even driver training ... these seem to provide more bank for the buck. IMHO.
As far as brakes and suspension upgrades or even driver training ... these seem to provide more bank for the buck. IMHO.
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,125
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From: Montreal
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Red_s2k
[B]Greg you posted your gain which just happened to match SEV's stock output, proving one of 2 things... dynos by their nature have so much varience that comparisons are not valid... or you(or your sponser) spent a ton of money for little improvement.
[B]Greg you posted your gain which just happened to match SEV's stock output, proving one of 2 things... dynos by their nature have so much varience that comparisons are not valid... or you(or your sponser) spent a ton of money for little improvement.
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 630
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SilverFog-
Don't paraphrase me when you can't get the concept right. Mixing the four or five individual points I brought up (and only in jest as a counterpoint) only shows your lack of critical reading skills, and judging by your poor mathematical skills, you're no rocket scientist either.
By the way-
Using your analogy- you forgot to DOT and EPA certify the go-kart, since it will have to be a highway legal car to compete equally in this comparison. You also forgot to make it LEV compliant. In the real world, DOT and EPA certification for a single vehicle type costs around US$800K for those who actually know what they are doing, on a vehicle that actually stands a chance of being certified. Once you add that cost, your go-kart doesn't seem all that great anymore. In any case, trying to compare drivetrain costs vs. upgrades is pretty pathetic and you know it, since everyone HAS to buy an entire car to use it. I've personally never seen anyone drive around, sitting on the transmission, trying to reach the throttle body and using their feet to stop... I would say that your example is pretty fruitless and pointless.
Any bozo can buy and install bolt-ons. That doesn't automatically earn him any respect on the street or at the track. It just says he's willing to waste/spend a lot of money to be just a little bit faster.
I don't think ANYONE here is saying they are wiser than Honda. What I do see here are a bunch of enthusiasts who, for the most part, didn't mind paying extra for the S2000 at the dealer to begin with, and wished that Honda maximised the performance potential of the car, which it didn't do, and at whatever expense they (the owners) deem necessary, will change to suit their wants and needs. Calling people names- ie. bozos for wanting a different experience with the S2000 shows poor judgement. Oh- don't forget all the problems people have been having with the supercharger kits that you are so quick to support.
In any case, why do you have a need to garner respect with a car? If people don't respect you without a car, why on earth would they respect you with one? Is your world THAT materialistic?
[QUOTE][B]Yes, you CAN throw money at this car to increase its power. You can also spend the same money and start with a more powerful car.
Don't paraphrase me when you can't get the concept right. Mixing the four or five individual points I brought up (and only in jest as a counterpoint) only shows your lack of critical reading skills, and judging by your poor mathematical skills, you're no rocket scientist either.
By the way-
Using your analogy- you forgot to DOT and EPA certify the go-kart, since it will have to be a highway legal car to compete equally in this comparison. You also forgot to make it LEV compliant. In the real world, DOT and EPA certification for a single vehicle type costs around US$800K for those who actually know what they are doing, on a vehicle that actually stands a chance of being certified. Once you add that cost, your go-kart doesn't seem all that great anymore. In any case, trying to compare drivetrain costs vs. upgrades is pretty pathetic and you know it, since everyone HAS to buy an entire car to use it. I've personally never seen anyone drive around, sitting on the transmission, trying to reach the throttle body and using their feet to stop... I would say that your example is pretty fruitless and pointless.
Any bozo can buy and install bolt-ons. That doesn't automatically earn him any respect on the street or at the track. It just says he's willing to waste/spend a lot of money to be just a little bit faster.
In any case, why do you have a need to garner respect with a car? If people don't respect you without a car, why on earth would they respect you with one? Is your world THAT materialistic?
[QUOTE][B]Yes, you CAN throw money at this car to increase its power. You can also spend the same money and start with a more powerful car.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Honda contracted an outside design firm for the F20C. It was the same outside firm that designed the 2l touring car motors, of which this motor was somewhat loosely based on.
If this is true why are Honda engineers writing the SAE paper?
Acording to the SAE paper this is a totally new engine block so how is it based (loosely or not) on a FWD touring car engine? It doesn't even spin in the same direction.
Guest
Posts: n/a
I believe whatever you try to do with the engine internals the OBD 2 system will circumvent.
In NY they just changed the State Inspection Process from running the car on the emmissions Dyno over a programmed cycle to just relying on the emmisions report from the OBD 2 system. If you tamper with the OBD 2 system you run the risk of not being able to inspect your car. If you don't tamper with it how can you maximize any cam changes, etc...? If you remove the OBD 2 system and just put it on for inspections it will probably not pass emmissions. I think that will rule out changing the cams.
You probably won't have a problem with flowing the heads or doing some valve seat grinding but probably any significant increase in flow will lean out the engine unless you are able to meter more fuel into it and there you are confronting the OBD 2 again.
I don't think this engine needs any ballance work as it is pretty damn smooth even without the use of any ballance shafts. Honda must have paid close attention to consistant component weight.
So time will tell but I feel the OBD 2 system is going to be a real big stumbling block for doing any significant mods to an engine you want to keep street legal.
In NY they just changed the State Inspection Process from running the car on the emmissions Dyno over a programmed cycle to just relying on the emmisions report from the OBD 2 system. If you tamper with the OBD 2 system you run the risk of not being able to inspect your car. If you don't tamper with it how can you maximize any cam changes, etc...? If you remove the OBD 2 system and just put it on for inspections it will probably not pass emmissions. I think that will rule out changing the cams.
You probably won't have a problem with flowing the heads or doing some valve seat grinding but probably any significant increase in flow will lean out the engine unless you are able to meter more fuel into it and there you are confronting the OBD 2 again.
I don't think this engine needs any ballance work as it is pretty damn smooth even without the use of any ballance shafts. Honda must have paid close attention to consistant component weight.
So time will tell but I feel the OBD 2 system is going to be a real big stumbling block for doing any significant mods to an engine you want to keep street legal.