jts09

I posted the comments below in the "Crank Walk Adventures: Thrust Bearing Failure". As the subject of that post says, there are some important questions that have not been answered. I would like to gather data on the number of Thrust Washer failures and mileages on '06 and later engines (or earlier models if any).

I own an '06 and have followed threads on this failure closely. Initially, it was reported that failures were caused by the thrust washer(s) being installed incorrectly (backwards) in some '06 engines. These apparently failed early. Since, additional failures have been reported with the "cause" related to a wear out mechanism exacerbated by the clutch inter-lock at start up or the use of aftermarket pressure plates that place additional stress on the crankshaft/thrust washers.

I agree that it makes sense that thrust washer wear could be impacted by either of these. My question remains, "Why is the '06 use of thrust washers different from earlier S engines or any other manual transmission engine?" Does this failure occur more frequently in cars that are "wintered". A dry thrust washer after sitting idle for months would seem to be a prime target for wear when the engine is first started. For those cars, disabling the clutch inter-lock would be a very good idea. Maybe as part of the winterization process? For a daily driver? Sure it could help, but with an OEM clutch should this be an issue? I grew up driving manual transmission cars and most did not have the clutch inter-lock. As a precaution, I have disabled the inter-lock switch, but I still wonder if it is necessary.

If this is indeed a wear out mechanism, every owner of a '06 or later S should expect to have the engine fail regardless of the precautions. The only variable would be mileage. Taking every precaution should extend the life of the engine, but will not eliminate the failure.

B serious

170K miles on my 07 which was supercharged, tracked, and had an aftermarket race clutch. It was on/off stored and did not have an interlock bypass.

Bottom end of that engine was mint, bruv. I had to shelf that engine due to a top end issue. But I plan to reuse the bottom end when I find a viable head.

Lots of high mile 06+'s out there.

I'm having some trouble following your post. Your research so far shows that aftermarket clutches manifest in worn thrust washers...which primarily seem to affect 06+'s?

Wear from over-clutching the car can affect any year, and I'm not sure the 06+ thrust bearing part numbers are different, are they?

noodels

06 run for the hills >

Car Analogy

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF, AND NO ONE HAS EVER CLAIMED, THAT '06 (nor '06+) ENGINES THRUST WASHER WEARS OUT FASTER THAN OTHER MODELS.

There WAS some engines that had their thrust washer fail EARLY. And some evidence to support backwards thrust washer install.

IN ADDITION to this, the thrust washer FOR ALL YEARS is susceptible to failure due to heavy duty pressure plate, as well as driver abuse (holding pedal down excessively, etc). Combining both hd pp and bad driver habits would obviously be even worse than either on its own.

I DON'T KNOW WHY OR HOW things were somehow confused that '06 (and or '06+) are more susceptible to wear. There IS NO EVIDENCE of that, and NO ONE IS CLAIMING THAT.

FURTHERMORE, if you have any concerns about your thrust washer, either because you're worried it was installed backwards, or because you have/had a hd pp, or because you're worried a po had bad driving habits, there is a now well documented procedure to test its condition. Using a dial indicator, and seeing how much for/aft play exists. Takes a few min, inexpensive tool, can be redone whenever.

In addition, an oil analysis can detect if there are any internal engine bearing concerns.

Lets stop beating this horse.

Zer0ne

'06 here with ~160k miles. Car has been daily'd for 10+ years, tracked, beat on, bounced off the limiter, sat in stop-&-go L.A. traffic TONS with the clutch pedal depressed (don't hate on me plz, I don't do it anymore). She still starts/runs like a dream. Oil analyses always came back beautiful too. I also have a spare F22C out of a wrecked '07 (~107k miles) I plan on putting on a stand and opening up to inspect when I get around to it. Will definitely be checking the thrust washer orientation but I'm betting it's fine too.

darcyw

A local first year s2000 that is still owned by the original owner, was sitting at several shops that couldn't figure on the problem. I followed the car's progress as the I knew the mechanics working on it at each location- eventually finding its way the local honda dealer. This MY 2000 car had engine failure at 60K miles as a result of worn thrust bearing apparently . It was not frequently driven by its female owner, not modified in any way- all OEM- and often sat for weeks/months at a time in a heated garage.

not sure if this helps.
darcy

jts09

These are exactly the types of comments I was trying to prompt. As I stated, this failure was originally reported in '06 engines as a manufacturing defect and resulted in early failures. Since then there have been many "reports" of engine failures caused by the thrust washer. There is a a great deal of supposition as to the cause of these failed engines. I've seen posts that link the "high mileage" failures to the use of after market clutches, "poor" driving habits, the clutch inter-lock (having to depress the clutch pedal to start the engine when the thrust washer is "dry") and even worn out engine mounts. All of the evidence for these "causes" is, at best, anecdotal.

I am not an expert on the mechanics of the S2000 engine. I am an engineer. A failure mode involving a manufacturing problem in some engines, based on the evidence, is likely. Without an identified cause, I find it hard to believe that a thrust washer wear out mechanism would be specific to S2000 engines. This type of failure would affect all manual transmission engines that use a thrust washer unless the implementation in the S2000 is different.

B serious

Thrust washer wear is not just an S2000 item.

S2000's do quite well in that regard. They're tolerant to bad habits and over clutching more some than other cars.

Look at 4G63's and their propensity for crank walk. There are other examples out there too.

In almost any instance of crank walk in any car or engine family, you'll find the same formula. A clutch with too much clamp force, bad driving habits, or letting the engine run low on oil. Or a combo of the above.

F2x engines were also optimized for performance and frictional losses more than most engines of its type...and that statement probably still stands true today. Despite that, they're extremely tolerant of abuse. However, it's not gonna be as tough in some regards as compared to like...a pickup truck engine.

The bearings in this car are optimized to efficiently run a relatively long stroke engine to 8000-9000 RPM. Its amazing how much they do, and how well they do it. Inherently, if someone now adds a clutch with massive clamp load and doesn't take the proper precautions...they're asking for a whole lot.

Wear doesn't typically kill these engines. Its abuse or neglect. Or in the case of some 06+'s, an assembly error where the thrust washers are oriented incorrectly.

Besides part selection, good driving habits will extend the life of any manual transmission car, not just an S2000.

windhund116

One thing I noticed is the engines that I've rebuilt (BMW and Porsche 911) have a much different-looking thrust bearing.


The thrust bearing halves style of the 911 and BMW engines are on the left of the photo. They have a shoulder which is pressed into the crankshaft saddle --- of the bottom end.


The Honda ones (which seem universal to most of their 4-cylinder cars) lack the shoulder. I wonder if this has an effect. Especially on heavily modified engines with heavy-duty pressure plates.