Big brake hype!
03-13-2001, 07:52 PM
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one thing first ( I wish I could type faster)
GTRPower
1 Stock rotor 14lbs-5.75ozs 11.75 dia Replacement 10lbs-3.5oz 12.19 dia
Stock caliper with pads 11lbs-2oz replacement caliper with pads and adapter 5lbs-3.75oz
TOTAL WEIGHT SAVINGS PER WHEEL 10lbs-.5ozs not much!!!!!!!
2 Ease of use and cost to maintain I will go over later. ( I think it may be cheaper than Honda parts)
3 You are corect , bigger not better need to improve cooling directional curved vane rotors . Aluminum hats not only reduce weight but stop transfer of heat to hub and wheel. Replacable rotors reduces cost to maintain. Also don't forget about cast iron heat sink ( cast iron stock caliper)
4 All of tests on braking are best distance , first or second time . If you keep up the testing with out improved cooling distance will degrade , fluid will boil and pads will melt .
Why S-2000 has single piston calipers COST!!!! Toyota Tundra has 4 piston front calipers. Great stopping also.
brad 6410
GTRPower
1 Stock rotor 14lbs-5.75ozs 11.75 dia Replacement 10lbs-3.5oz 12.19 dia
Stock caliper with pads 11lbs-2oz replacement caliper with pads and adapter 5lbs-3.75oz
TOTAL WEIGHT SAVINGS PER WHEEL 10lbs-.5ozs not much!!!!!!!
2 Ease of use and cost to maintain I will go over later. ( I think it may be cheaper than Honda parts)
3 You are corect , bigger not better need to improve cooling directional curved vane rotors . Aluminum hats not only reduce weight but stop transfer of heat to hub and wheel. Replacable rotors reduces cost to maintain. Also don't forget about cast iron heat sink ( cast iron stock caliper)
4 All of tests on braking are best distance , first or second time . If you keep up the testing with out improved cooling distance will degrade , fluid will boil and pads will melt .
Why S-2000 has single piston calipers COST!!!! Toyota Tundra has 4 piston front calipers. Great stopping also.
brad 6410
03-14-2001, 11:26 AM
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Yeow! You guys are taking this way too personally...
dwb1-
Costs for a replacement rotor (on an aluminum hat) is far more than a stock OEM rotor. I know, I have both...
If you're saving 20lbs on the braking system that's pretty significant. Just don't lose reliablity.
Interesting thing- using aluminum hats to reduce heat transferance to the hub and wheel. Some people think that that is exactly what braking systems need- more heat transfer to other components that are not as effected by heat. I'm still up in the air about that one. If heat transfer is a problem an aluminum spacer sandwiched between the wheel and hub could be a cheap and similar solution on an OEM system.
Multiple stops is a better indicator of overall stopping power- agreed. That's something I do on the track with the S2000 too... and I haven't had problems with my brake setup.
wileecoyote-
Cost is a significant factor when building a car. Yes, I'm sure cost is a very good reason to only supply the S2000 (and other cars) with single piston front calipers, but believe me- if it was at the expense of overall performance these brakes would not be OEM. I'm surprised that you don't feel cost is an issue afterwards too- cost effectiveness always factors into my purchases as a consumer.
Cooling ducts work whether you are going fast or slow. If your cooling ducts are not working as I suggested, perhaps you are riding the brakes too much? The tracks that I drive vary from tight and technical (far more than any road in HK) to very, very fast and hard on brakes (super speedways and the such) and my modified OEM brake system is up to the job.
If you are talking about the brakes' ability to stop the rotor and not lock it up, perhaps you should actually state that. Those are very different thoughts. If you want appreciable gain in stopping power (the way you are describing it) you will still get a better solution in swapping different brake pads into the system (increasing the coefficient of friction). Theoretical knowledge means squat in the real world- you can spew a bunch of different equations at me, but the bottom line is rotor size affects initial bite, not overall stopping power- Car&Driver have shown that on numerous occasions with testing on cars with modified braking systems where bigger front brakes INCREASED braking distances. Again, if you are talking about heat retention, why are you trying to retain more heat? The problem with your solution is that ANY brake system will have limits to heat retention- so the most important thing for you to do is GET RID OF THE HEAT, not store it for later. That's what brake ducts are for.
I find it interesting that you feel that the power and weight of a car has no bearing on the braking system. I've always had the gut feeling that the faster the car can go, the more braking power it needs (direct correlation).
Just because a braking system fits on other cars does not mean that it was designed to fit ANY car. Slapping on a Porsche/Brembo/Widget branded big caliper is not the solution to the problem. It introduces other problems- brake bias, long pedal, poor feel, tire overload, suspension overload, etc. You're forgetting one very good reason why you don't go to a multipiston caliper- multiple pistons means multiple chances for them to fail. I've seen it happen (although very rare) and it's a real world concern. There is no collelation to the number of pistons a caliper has to the clamping power it produces- it's more a function of fluid displacement and volume control. I never mentioned using two C clamps to push the pistons back- I mentioned that you need two channel lock pliers to push the pistons back with the old pad. Only pushing one piston at a time (which is what you are suggesting) will push the other piston out. Although an octopus would be of certain help in many areas of working on any car (thinner arms, good flexiblity) I just don't see how you will communicate with it, and how it would survive out of water.
The reason why I mentioned Colin Chapman is because he was famous for REMOVING complexity to his race cars- half the time the cars broke because Lotus had built it not quite strong enough- using every part to 100% effectiveness was his goal, and sometimes parts were used to 110%... I am familiar with both the Lotus Elise and Lotus 7- perhaps you have seen the black Elise with the license plate EL153, and, another friend of mine in the US has a 400HP Cosworth turbo based 7. All the cars mentioned are a different experience to a S2000, and have different problem areas associated with them. Why do you insist on mentioning a GT-R as an example for your braking solution? I don't see the correlation. GT-Rs are 3400lbs, with tremendous torque available (over 400ft/lbs at the wheels in many examples) and actually need the braking power you think you need in a S2000. Let's stay on topic.
I don't see where I ever stated that I would find it a problem bleeding two sides of a caliper. You're the one who stated that you didn't rebuild 10 year old calipers, and that brake bleeds were a once a year affair. Poeple have seen me come in off the track with the brakes on fire because of piston seal failure. Mov'it is not correct in saying that their Porsche caliper hardware is very different from the Brembo Lotus, F40 and F50 calipers- I've seen both side by side, unassembled, and they are VERY similar. Both use the same bolts for mating the halves together, both use similar mounting hardware. To be quite honest, if the Brembo system is good enough for Ferrari, I don't see how you can say it isn't good enough anyone else.
In any case, I don't like the thought of adding complexity to an area that is so important- which is why I think the big brake talk is all hype. In addition, I think of the $3K that you spent on the brakes, $2500 could have been better spent elsewhere, like suspension, tires, power output, weight reduction, etc.
dwb1-
Costs for a replacement rotor (on an aluminum hat) is far more than a stock OEM rotor. I know, I have both...
If you're saving 20lbs on the braking system that's pretty significant. Just don't lose reliablity.
Interesting thing- using aluminum hats to reduce heat transferance to the hub and wheel. Some people think that that is exactly what braking systems need- more heat transfer to other components that are not as effected by heat. I'm still up in the air about that one. If heat transfer is a problem an aluminum spacer sandwiched between the wheel and hub could be a cheap and similar solution on an OEM system.
Multiple stops is a better indicator of overall stopping power- agreed. That's something I do on the track with the S2000 too... and I haven't had problems with my brake setup.
wileecoyote-
Cost is a significant factor when building a car. Yes, I'm sure cost is a very good reason to only supply the S2000 (and other cars) with single piston front calipers, but believe me- if it was at the expense of overall performance these brakes would not be OEM. I'm surprised that you don't feel cost is an issue afterwards too- cost effectiveness always factors into my purchases as a consumer.
Cooling ducts work whether you are going fast or slow. If your cooling ducts are not working as I suggested, perhaps you are riding the brakes too much? The tracks that I drive vary from tight and technical (far more than any road in HK) to very, very fast and hard on brakes (super speedways and the such) and my modified OEM brake system is up to the job.
If you are talking about the brakes' ability to stop the rotor and not lock it up, perhaps you should actually state that. Those are very different thoughts. If you want appreciable gain in stopping power (the way you are describing it) you will still get a better solution in swapping different brake pads into the system (increasing the coefficient of friction). Theoretical knowledge means squat in the real world- you can spew a bunch of different equations at me, but the bottom line is rotor size affects initial bite, not overall stopping power- Car&Driver have shown that on numerous occasions with testing on cars with modified braking systems where bigger front brakes INCREASED braking distances. Again, if you are talking about heat retention, why are you trying to retain more heat? The problem with your solution is that ANY brake system will have limits to heat retention- so the most important thing for you to do is GET RID OF THE HEAT, not store it for later. That's what brake ducts are for.
I find it interesting that you feel that the power and weight of a car has no bearing on the braking system. I've always had the gut feeling that the faster the car can go, the more braking power it needs (direct correlation).
Just because a braking system fits on other cars does not mean that it was designed to fit ANY car. Slapping on a Porsche/Brembo/Widget branded big caliper is not the solution to the problem. It introduces other problems- brake bias, long pedal, poor feel, tire overload, suspension overload, etc. You're forgetting one very good reason why you don't go to a multipiston caliper- multiple pistons means multiple chances for them to fail. I've seen it happen (although very rare) and it's a real world concern. There is no collelation to the number of pistons a caliper has to the clamping power it produces- it's more a function of fluid displacement and volume control. I never mentioned using two C clamps to push the pistons back- I mentioned that you need two channel lock pliers to push the pistons back with the old pad. Only pushing one piston at a time (which is what you are suggesting) will push the other piston out. Although an octopus would be of certain help in many areas of working on any car (thinner arms, good flexiblity) I just don't see how you will communicate with it, and how it would survive out of water.
The reason why I mentioned Colin Chapman is because he was famous for REMOVING complexity to his race cars- half the time the cars broke because Lotus had built it not quite strong enough- using every part to 100% effectiveness was his goal, and sometimes parts were used to 110%... I am familiar with both the Lotus Elise and Lotus 7- perhaps you have seen the black Elise with the license plate EL153, and, another friend of mine in the US has a 400HP Cosworth turbo based 7. All the cars mentioned are a different experience to a S2000, and have different problem areas associated with them. Why do you insist on mentioning a GT-R as an example for your braking solution? I don't see the correlation. GT-Rs are 3400lbs, with tremendous torque available (over 400ft/lbs at the wheels in many examples) and actually need the braking power you think you need in a S2000. Let's stay on topic.
I don't see where I ever stated that I would find it a problem bleeding two sides of a caliper. You're the one who stated that you didn't rebuild 10 year old calipers, and that brake bleeds were a once a year affair. Poeple have seen me come in off the track with the brakes on fire because of piston seal failure. Mov'it is not correct in saying that their Porsche caliper hardware is very different from the Brembo Lotus, F40 and F50 calipers- I've seen both side by side, unassembled, and they are VERY similar. Both use the same bolts for mating the halves together, both use similar mounting hardware. To be quite honest, if the Brembo system is good enough for Ferrari, I don't see how you can say it isn't good enough anyone else.
In any case, I don't like the thought of adding complexity to an area that is so important- which is why I think the big brake talk is all hype. In addition, I think of the $3K that you spent on the brakes, $2500 could have been better spent elsewhere, like suspension, tires, power output, weight reduction, etc.
03-14-2001, 07:26 PM
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Brake nite
Final fit up . Things fit like glove . Need to tweek lines and make custom lines for front . Next week should be on the road.
HEAT keep in rotors give up to air passing over rotor as fast as you can !!!!!!
HEAT goes to wheel and hub NO NO!!!!
HEAT goes to caliper NO NO!!!!
Caliper holds HEAT NO NO!!!!
One thing I have not talked about " PRICE" every one thinks real expensive . Soon I will have all costs and will give cost very reasonable .
Cast iron rotors , Stainless steel bushings , high strength aircraft bolts (safety wired ) to forged aluminum hat . The key is try to stop flow of heat to wheel and hub. Finned forged aluminum caliper get rid of any heat as fast as you can. Alot of little things add up . AND they do look Goooood.
brad 6410
Final fit up . Things fit like glove . Need to tweek lines and make custom lines for front . Next week should be on the road.
HEAT keep in rotors give up to air passing over rotor as fast as you can !!!!!!
HEAT goes to wheel and hub NO NO!!!!
HEAT goes to caliper NO NO!!!!
Caliper holds HEAT NO NO!!!!
One thing I have not talked about " PRICE" every one thinks real expensive . Soon I will have all costs and will give cost very reasonable .
Cast iron rotors , Stainless steel bushings , high strength aircraft bolts (safety wired ) to forged aluminum hat . The key is try to stop flow of heat to wheel and hub. Finned forged aluminum caliper get rid of any heat as fast as you can. Alot of little things add up . AND they do look Goooood.
brad 6410
03-16-2001, 08:16 AM
#17
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A couple of comments:
Weight and power - Weight is an obvious consideration when considering braking capacity as it is a component of determining the energy you must dissipate. However, you _must_ consider power. The example of two cars travelling the same speed is spurious. Why? Because the speed those two cars reach will be largely dependent on power-to-weight ratio.
If you have a 3500 lbs, 250 hp Mustang vs. a 2500 lbs, 200 hp Integra, which one would need bigger brakes? It isn't an easy question to answer as the Integra will accelerate harder but carry less weight to brake.
Second, the idea of a lightweight rotor is nice, but if you're still using cast iron, you're reducing your thermal mass significantly. With approximately the same surface area as the stock rotor, but a 25% reduction in mass, your operating temperatures will be higher if car mass remains the same. Ceramic/Ti composite rotors with appropriate pads can handle these temps (with proper fluid insulation), but do you really want to be increasing your operating temps in this case? Cooling ducts would be a very good idea.
UL
Weight and power - Weight is an obvious consideration when considering braking capacity as it is a component of determining the energy you must dissipate. However, you _must_ consider power. The example of two cars travelling the same speed is spurious. Why? Because the speed those two cars reach will be largely dependent on power-to-weight ratio.
If you have a 3500 lbs, 250 hp Mustang vs. a 2500 lbs, 200 hp Integra, which one would need bigger brakes? It isn't an easy question to answer as the Integra will accelerate harder but carry less weight to brake.
Second, the idea of a lightweight rotor is nice, but if you're still using cast iron, you're reducing your thermal mass significantly. With approximately the same surface area as the stock rotor, but a 25% reduction in mass, your operating temperatures will be higher if car mass remains the same. Ceramic/Ti composite rotors with appropriate pads can handle these temps (with proper fluid insulation), but do you really want to be increasing your operating temps in this case? Cooling ducts would be a very good idea.
UL
03-16-2001, 09:14 AM
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UL-
I tend to agree with your thoughts here. I obviously come from the camp that thinks that getting rid of the heat is more important than finding ways to increase the heatload capacity...
wileecoyote-
I don't intend to take apart every comment you make, but there are many things that you said that are just plain generalizations.
Life is about compromise- even life in racing. No matter what you may think you have seen, most race teams continue to use fairly standard braking systems- multipiston calipers and cast iron rotors, with ducting. Their braking is then fine tuned with brake pads- brake torque is generally easier to modulate with different compound changes than anything else.
Now, given what I just said, I have only one thing to add that makes this a completely moot point- race teams generally have to USE MONEY to get parts- and that ultimately represents a choice they have to make when deciding what parts to install on their cars. Surprisingly enough, since most race teams use cast iron rotors and standard calipers instead of some exotic combination, I would assume that they are a. happy with the braking system to leave it alone, and b. think that the money is better spent elsewhere. I think the stock OEM braking system, with the upgrades I've stated MANY times before now, is an adequate system for pretty much EVERYONE on the track. If you need MORE brake, you need to use the brakes LESS. You cannot expect to drive this car fast without carrying speed due to its low power. Better suspension tuning, tire tuning, and power upgrades will improve times more than going with some $3000 big brake wonder.
As usual, you seem more interested in "catching" errors in my statements than admitting that you haven't tried the solutions presented here. The brake system in question that caught fire was on an Integra Type R, with rebuilt NSX calipers, on stock rotors. The pads were fine, the fluid was fine, it was the LARGER piston seal of the second piston that failed. This is why I am hesitant to add more complexity to a good, well designed braking system.
Do as you see fit. I still do not think your solution is anywhere near the best in this instance.
Multipiston designs allow more even wear along the horizontal axis, but not the vertical. Single big piston designs are better for that. This is one of the reasons why I am hestitant to recommend any multipiston design on the S2000- for pedal feel to be the same, you need same fluid displacement, which would mean that the multipiston design, with a big pad, would probably get VERY uneven top to bottom wear. This is another real world concern- again, more pistons does not mean better braking.
Ducting works much better than you make it out to be. Porsche has been racing with braking ducts forever, and I've been quoted from someone else since at least the 80's. So since Porsche ducts their race cars, perhaps you'll duct your S2000 too? If you are not driving your car fast enough for brake ducting to work, then I submit that you are not driving your car fast enough for big brakes to get within their operating temperature range. Floating rotors need heat to seat into the hats and mounting hardware- if you are attempting to brake without them properly seated they could shear the mounting hardware off. Again, this is a real world concern. Too much brake is too much brake.
I also do not agree with your assesment that the only solution to "overheating" is a bigger radiator. I think it really depends on the flow rate, the efficiency of the radiator, and the headroom that the radiator has to cope with the added thermal load. I suggest that you should probably spend more time testing your theories on a track than making blanket statements. Your continous use of "high school physics" does not impress me- it only reiterates that you don't have real world experience. When you have a limited amount of heat you can carry in a car, retaining heat in any car is not the solution to keeping it within it. You are proposing that. I'm proposing that you get rid of excess heat ASAP.
Besides, the moment of inertia is harder to change on a heavier rotor+lightweight hat assembly than an OEM rotor that has a more centrally located mass. You seem to enjoy doing math- figure it out on your own...
I tend to agree with your thoughts here. I obviously come from the camp that thinks that getting rid of the heat is more important than finding ways to increase the heatload capacity...
wileecoyote-
I don't intend to take apart every comment you make, but there are many things that you said that are just plain generalizations.
Life is about compromise- even life in racing. No matter what you may think you have seen, most race teams continue to use fairly standard braking systems- multipiston calipers and cast iron rotors, with ducting. Their braking is then fine tuned with brake pads- brake torque is generally easier to modulate with different compound changes than anything else.
Now, given what I just said, I have only one thing to add that makes this a completely moot point- race teams generally have to USE MONEY to get parts- and that ultimately represents a choice they have to make when deciding what parts to install on their cars. Surprisingly enough, since most race teams use cast iron rotors and standard calipers instead of some exotic combination, I would assume that they are a. happy with the braking system to leave it alone, and b. think that the money is better spent elsewhere. I think the stock OEM braking system, with the upgrades I've stated MANY times before now, is an adequate system for pretty much EVERYONE on the track. If you need MORE brake, you need to use the brakes LESS. You cannot expect to drive this car fast without carrying speed due to its low power. Better suspension tuning, tire tuning, and power upgrades will improve times more than going with some $3000 big brake wonder.
As usual, you seem more interested in "catching" errors in my statements than admitting that you haven't tried the solutions presented here. The brake system in question that caught fire was on an Integra Type R, with rebuilt NSX calipers, on stock rotors. The pads were fine, the fluid was fine, it was the LARGER piston seal of the second piston that failed. This is why I am hesitant to add more complexity to a good, well designed braking system.
Do as you see fit. I still do not think your solution is anywhere near the best in this instance.
Multipiston designs allow more even wear along the horizontal axis, but not the vertical. Single big piston designs are better for that. This is one of the reasons why I am hestitant to recommend any multipiston design on the S2000- for pedal feel to be the same, you need same fluid displacement, which would mean that the multipiston design, with a big pad, would probably get VERY uneven top to bottom wear. This is another real world concern- again, more pistons does not mean better braking.
Ducting works much better than you make it out to be. Porsche has been racing with braking ducts forever, and I've been quoted from someone else since at least the 80's. So since Porsche ducts their race cars, perhaps you'll duct your S2000 too? If you are not driving your car fast enough for brake ducting to work, then I submit that you are not driving your car fast enough for big brakes to get within their operating temperature range. Floating rotors need heat to seat into the hats and mounting hardware- if you are attempting to brake without them properly seated they could shear the mounting hardware off. Again, this is a real world concern. Too much brake is too much brake.
I also do not agree with your assesment that the only solution to "overheating" is a bigger radiator. I think it really depends on the flow rate, the efficiency of the radiator, and the headroom that the radiator has to cope with the added thermal load. I suggest that you should probably spend more time testing your theories on a track than making blanket statements. Your continous use of "high school physics" does not impress me- it only reiterates that you don't have real world experience. When you have a limited amount of heat you can carry in a car, retaining heat in any car is not the solution to keeping it within it. You are proposing that. I'm proposing that you get rid of excess heat ASAP.
Besides, the moment of inertia is harder to change on a heavier rotor+lightweight hat assembly than an OEM rotor that has a more centrally located mass. You seem to enjoy doing math- figure it out on your own...
03-16-2001, 05:08 PM
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The subject goes on and on. I like that . Most of the questions that you bring up I have asked people that have been building racing braking systems for over 30 years.
Once the kit is installed on my car testing will be done to compare tempiture of rotor on stock car to my kit .This information is needed to tune brake pad material to car and how the the car will be used. Best way to do that is with paint.
Every one goes left than right than back left with thoughts , try to stay focused.
Make brakes run cooler
Make brakes easer to work on
Make parts cheaper
More selection of brake pads
Maximize brake to fit space requirements ( no expensive wheel and tire change)
Make kit true bolt on
The directional curved blade rotors move huge amounts of extra air through rotors at a very small additional cost. Our car was built for street use, go fast stop, drive a little stop and with that no problems. Push the HELL out of it and the brakes have a problem keeping up.
You make bandaid repairs , higher temp fluid, different pads and expect everthing to be ok. Why not have fun, optimize every part and improve function and longevity. This whole project has been my pursuit of optimizing every thing I could on the S-2000 brakes . If I could not find a part that I needed I had it made. Over 6 companies have put their best people working on this with me to offer the best function and value available.
There are more things that add to the heat in the rotor that no one has brought up yet.
And if hubs and wheels were good heat sinks you people better tell every racer in the world, they have it wrong!!!
Next week all of the final protype parts should be in and test I shall . My car will be at Ashville with its BRAKE JEWELRY on. The best part is you can make something that not only works better ,but it looks a hell of a lot better.
I will try to get time to post braking 103 CALIPERS what I found in my search. The brake lines that Earl's made are definitely first class , a few adjustments on lenghts and they should be perfect. They swage ends on their lines , don't crimp them on , much stronger connection .
brad
6410
Once the kit is installed on my car testing will be done to compare tempiture of rotor on stock car to my kit .This information is needed to tune brake pad material to car and how the the car will be used. Best way to do that is with paint.
Every one goes left than right than back left with thoughts , try to stay focused.
Make brakes run cooler
Make brakes easer to work on
Make parts cheaper
More selection of brake pads
Maximize brake to fit space requirements ( no expensive wheel and tire change)
Make kit true bolt on
The directional curved blade rotors move huge amounts of extra air through rotors at a very small additional cost. Our car was built for street use, go fast stop, drive a little stop and with that no problems. Push the HELL out of it and the brakes have a problem keeping up.
You make bandaid repairs , higher temp fluid, different pads and expect everthing to be ok. Why not have fun, optimize every part and improve function and longevity. This whole project has been my pursuit of optimizing every thing I could on the S-2000 brakes . If I could not find a part that I needed I had it made. Over 6 companies have put their best people working on this with me to offer the best function and value available.
There are more things that add to the heat in the rotor that no one has brought up yet.
And if hubs and wheels were good heat sinks you people better tell every racer in the world, they have it wrong!!!
Next week all of the final protype parts should be in and test I shall . My car will be at Ashville with its BRAKE JEWELRY on. The best part is you can make something that not only works better ,but it looks a hell of a lot better.
I will try to get time to post braking 103 CALIPERS what I found in my search. The brake lines that Earl's made are definitely first class , a few adjustments on lenghts and they should be perfect. They swage ends on their lines , don't crimp them on , much stronger connection .
brad
6410
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