mxt_77

Yeah, Todd mentioned that to me as well, and I think you're right. 7hp loss sounds about right for my latest results. I went back in today, and I'm still down on power, but the graph itself looks more like the original cams install.
I have a much more pronounced torque bump at the VTEC x-over, and the AF curve is almost identical to the original dyno w/ the old cams. Almost as importantly, the car feels more like it did with the original cams installed.

My problem is: "How do I verify that the dyno is mis-calibrated?" I guess I'd have to find someone that has dyno'd at Speedworks before and hasn't done any mods to their car since then and is willing to go out and dyno again. Alternatively, I could find another dyno and dyno my own car there, but I don't know how much good that would do, since I wouldn't have a baseline there.

Anyway, here is my latest attempt at installing the new cams vs my original attempt at installing them. There is a marked improvement, especially right around 6000 RPM:


However, here is my latest attempt at installing the new cams vs the first set of Toda cams that I had (that Todd installed). Notice I'm still a long way away from those numbers, however the curves have much more similar shapes to them (both the torque curve and the AF curve):


But what does it all tell us?

I'm still waiting on Toda to come back and tell me more about this "3 degrees of play on the keyway", or anything else I should look for.

allenheathdj

You are a dedicated man

Gernby

My car is back to the way it was before, so you could use it as a bench mark. The last time I dyno'ed it in this configuration, I had an almost identical run to your best.

mxt_77

Hmm... Assuming your car is consistent enough to use as a baseline (meaning your setup/tuning is exactly the same), I'd be interested to see what numbers you put down on their dyno if you re-dyno'd... but considering I've already paid for 3 of my own dyno sessions while trying to tune these cams, I can't really afford to "sponsor" your run.
I might be willing to split the cost w/ you, though... if you're interested. Maybe we could ask marcucci or TypeSH if they'd split the cost w/ us, too... since they had a recent dyno that was lower than they expected. Assuming you're willing to do that.

revto9k

One of the biggest question:
was your car on the same set of wheel for both of the dyno runs? Sizing up the wheel will put more weight to the outside, thus lowering the dyno reading. I can't tell just by looking at your dyno chart, but it appears that TODA cams smooths out the torque curve.
Other than that, how is your ECU mapped? I personally don't believe there can be any screw ups in the installation if you follow the instruction.

mxt_77

Absolutely everything was exactly the same as the original install (other than the cams). Same wheels, same modifications, stock ECU, etc. The ECU was reset after the installation of the cams.

The main benefit of the original cams was the increase in torque in the mid-range. They didn't really "smooth out" the curve as far as I could tell.

Elistan

Given what Gernby said about their environmental measurements being off - try comparing dynoes using uncorrected numbers.

mxt_77

That's even worse. Uncorrected results differ by about 20hp (comparing the original Toda cams vs the new Toda cams).

marcucci

I think there are multiple potential issues here. The big ??? is Speedworks' dyno. We had one UGLY session where TypeSH and gerby were both down from where they should have been, though both cars admittedly had mods from the previous runs. Still, we didn't expect the power loss we saw that day.

I still think that IAT and ECT are having an effect here. Even with the correction factors and correction for ambient temps, the ECU will pull out timing as temps go up. You can't correct for that other than to lower the ambient air temp or fooling the ECU. Neither are easy.

I talked with Marcus about this but the "play" I think is more in the cam gear itself. Does anyone know about the split design? I haven't taken one apart but the gear seems to be of a split design that is dampened somehow with a spring. Not sure what that is but I have a feeling there may be some play there.

I remember we mic'd the key and keyway and there was NO play whatsoever.

I am still suspicious that Toda may have changed the cam lift/duration/LCA but we don't have the "old" ones to compare to anymore.

Just about any of these in any mix put together could account for the slight power loss on the dyno compared to the older runs.

mxt_77

I agree.. I just don't know how to take that ??? out of the equation. I need to find someone that has an old baseline and hasn't changed their configuration, and is willing to go back and dyno again to see if there is a difference. Any volunteers?

I agree that these things play a role... I just wish there was a way to quantify it. If a 15 degree change in ambient air temperatures equates to an 8hp loss, then by the time August rolls around, I'll be putting down about 150hp!
However, I do believe that your comment holds water. I only posted one of the two runs from my last session. However, on the first run the car was hot off the street and the numbers were identical from my previous session (and I do mean identical). I let the car cool for 15 minutes and reset the ECU and I pulled out another couple of lb-ft across the rev range (which led to a 5hp peak power increase), and a much improved torque bump just above 6K RPM. But, still I hate to think that such a small increase in temperature could lead to such a large loss in power. (Especially w/ the world famous Hondata Intake Manifold insulator installed! )

BTW... what's ECT stand for? Engine coolant temp?