Cosworth Motor Oil
02-22-2006, 09:30 AM
#11
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Originally Posted by cdelena,Feb 22 2006, 10:16 AM
This sure looks like a nicely developed labeling program and promotion. We know Cosworth is not an oil company and the details read like a specification, not a special formulation. Who makes this lubricant?
We have reliable proof that over 99% of engines do fine with a regular motor oil so I question the need or expense when something like this comes up.
We have reliable proof that over 99% of engines do fine with a regular motor oil so I question the need or expense when something like this comes up.
02-22-2006, 09:53 AM
#12
Well, I'm not sure that's fair... The web site is quite clear that this is not just a branded product. Whether that's true, well, I don't know. If it's a unique formula (admittedly, that's not posted on the site, but I don't think that tells us anything), then it's worth finding out more info.
Agreed on the point that this kind of thing is probably not needed. That said, any help we can get from a motor oil is welcome to at least some S2000 folks out there. Particularly with some of the folks running FI.
BTW, LUVNMBRS, where did you discover that 5W-40 is (one of two) recommended for our car?? I didn't see that.
Agreed on the point that this kind of thing is probably not needed. That said, any help we can get from a motor oil is welcome to at least some S2000 folks out there. Particularly with some of the folks running FI.
BTW, LUVNMBRS, where did you discover that 5W-40 is (one of two) recommended for our car?? I didn't see that.
02-24-2006, 12:15 PM
#14
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Hello everyone. Your discussion came to our attention because we're trying to guide the introduction of our new products.
Being divested from Ford at the end of 2004 has allowed Cosworth to expand beyond racing and Ford engine parts. Cosworth now manufactures performance heads, manifolds, and pistons for Subaru, Mazda, Mitsubishi, and Honda plus more parts are coming. Check them out at www.cosworth.com.
Cosworth is also in the aftermarket fluids business and is not rebranding another product or licensing our name. We've taken on some experienced ex-oil company formulators to work with in-house design engineers. Their tenure included supporting the race teams the oil company sponsored. This new combination is unique - other oil companies don
Being divested from Ford at the end of 2004 has allowed Cosworth to expand beyond racing and Ford engine parts. Cosworth now manufactures performance heads, manifolds, and pistons for Subaru, Mazda, Mitsubishi, and Honda plus more parts are coming. Check them out at www.cosworth.com.
Cosworth is also in the aftermarket fluids business and is not rebranding another product or licensing our name. We've taken on some experienced ex-oil company formulators to work with in-house design engineers. Their tenure included supporting the race teams the oil company sponsored. This new combination is unique - other oil companies don
02-24-2006, 01:05 PM
#15
Originally Posted by LUVNMBRS,Feb 24 2006, 12:44 AM
Check your owner's manual.
[...]
[...]
Yup, my owner's manual does mention 5W-40 as an alternative, though 10W-30 is recommended for year-round usage. I gather from the manual that 5W-40 is best for sub-zero climates.
Well, it's a fairly new product. Someone will have to be guinea pig, LUVNMBRS...
Thank you for your input, LiquidCosworth. You are correct that it's unusual (unique, even) for an engine manufacturer to actually be formulating their own oil. That's why I asked if it was a re-brand... AFAIK, even Honda rebrands Mobil oil products.
It's good to see a new name on the oil front. I've been a Mobil 1 user since it was introduced in the '80s, and my S has been pumping Mobil 1 for 30K miles, but I promise to take a serious look at your stuff.
02-24-2006, 08:00 PM
#16
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Thread Starter
LiquidCosworth, so how does your product compare to a premium synoil like Redline? Does your oil use Polyol Ester Group V base stocks? What makes your formulation so unique compared with all the others out there?
Additionally, if the oil you are selling really is the same as the one used in your V10 F1 engines, why is it a multi-grade with detergents (which are required in a street oil)? Most racing oils like the Motul 300V are straight grades with no detergents.
Additionally, if the oil you are selling really is the same as the one used in your V10 F1 engines, why is it a multi-grade with detergents (which are required in a street oil)? Most racing oils like the Motul 300V are straight grades with no detergents.
02-27-2006, 04:56 AM
#17
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Hello, LUVNMBRS.
We use a blend of PAO and esters. PAO tends to shrink seals, esters to soften them, so a mixture is ideal for elastomeric materials to maintain the original shape. Also, we prefer to formulate with friction modifiers (we use two distinct families of FMs) to provide that activity on the metal surface rather than polar ester base oils.
Our approach is to ensure maximum engine performance and reliability. To that end, there is (to over simplify) a dual system of detergents, dispersants, anti-wear, and friction modifier systems in the formulation. One group covers the performance needs of street performance, gasoline engines, and moderately severe temperatures. The other group performs in the higher temperature arena of diesel engines. In north America, think of turbo-charged tractor trailers that operate at high loads for extended periods, passing significant quantities of soot, blow-by and fuel components into the oil. Those conditions represent racing conditions reasonably well.
Historically, not using detergents was an artifact of some racing engines consuming oil. Organo-metallic additives would cause combustion chamber or piston top deposits, leading to pre-ignition. That's not the case in modern engines. The only technical challenge is balancing the activity on the metal surface between detergents and friction modifiers, which can be done. Motul 300V products do have calcium and magnesium detergents - this is from an oil analysis web forum:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultima...c;f=11;t=000306
The "W" number is a measurement of oil at low temperatures, which for the most part, evaluates an oil's propensity to form wax and solidify. The "W" is not a labeling requirement, so a synthetic SAE 40 could very well meet the 15W or 10W requirement, the marketer has simply chosen not to include it. Perhaps said another way, you can't "dumb down" a synthetic to make it not be a multigrade. The source of this confusion is that mineral oils need viscosity modifier additives to provide good low and high temperature fluidity while synthetic oils need less or none. If it uses none, should be be labeled as a single grade (since there's been no attempt to change the viscosity characteristics) or a multigrade (since it performs like a multigrade)? Perhaps it's part of the mystique of a racing oil.
Let me emphasize that the oil used in the F1 engines is the same as in the bottle. The only difference between any of them is the viscosity grade; the additive system is identical.
Apologies to the moderators for the previous commercial. I will try to visit and catch up on questions that follow.
We use a blend of PAO and esters. PAO tends to shrink seals, esters to soften them, so a mixture is ideal for elastomeric materials to maintain the original shape. Also, we prefer to formulate with friction modifiers (we use two distinct families of FMs) to provide that activity on the metal surface rather than polar ester base oils.
Our approach is to ensure maximum engine performance and reliability. To that end, there is (to over simplify) a dual system of detergents, dispersants, anti-wear, and friction modifier systems in the formulation. One group covers the performance needs of street performance, gasoline engines, and moderately severe temperatures. The other group performs in the higher temperature arena of diesel engines. In north America, think of turbo-charged tractor trailers that operate at high loads for extended periods, passing significant quantities of soot, blow-by and fuel components into the oil. Those conditions represent racing conditions reasonably well.
Historically, not using detergents was an artifact of some racing engines consuming oil. Organo-metallic additives would cause combustion chamber or piston top deposits, leading to pre-ignition. That's not the case in modern engines. The only technical challenge is balancing the activity on the metal surface between detergents and friction modifiers, which can be done. Motul 300V products do have calcium and magnesium detergents - this is from an oil analysis web forum:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultima...c;f=11;t=000306
The "W" number is a measurement of oil at low temperatures, which for the most part, evaluates an oil's propensity to form wax and solidify. The "W" is not a labeling requirement, so a synthetic SAE 40 could very well meet the 15W or 10W requirement, the marketer has simply chosen not to include it. Perhaps said another way, you can't "dumb down" a synthetic to make it not be a multigrade. The source of this confusion is that mineral oils need viscosity modifier additives to provide good low and high temperature fluidity while synthetic oils need less or none. If it uses none, should be be labeled as a single grade (since there's been no attempt to change the viscosity characteristics) or a multigrade (since it performs like a multigrade)? Perhaps it's part of the mystique of a racing oil.
Let me emphasize that the oil used in the F1 engines is the same as in the bottle. The only difference between any of them is the viscosity grade; the additive system is identical.
Apologies to the moderators for the previous commercial. I will try to visit and catch up on questions that follow.
02-27-2006, 05:23 AM
#18
I did not know that about synthetics and multigrade additives. It must be a good day; I learned something!
So, for my own purposes, I have an AP1 (2.0L 9K red line) S2000 running in winter between 0 and 40 degF, and in summer between 50 and 100 degF. Does Cosworth recommend its 30 grade or its 40 grade viscosity (of the F1 oil) for either/both scenarios? This would be helpful to those of us considering using the product. Would the recommendation differ at all for AP2 customers (2.2L, 8K red line)?
So, for my own purposes, I have an AP1 (2.0L 9K red line) S2000 running in winter between 0 and 40 degF, and in summer between 50 and 100 degF. Does Cosworth recommend its 30 grade or its 40 grade viscosity (of the F1 oil) for either/both scenarios? This would be helpful to those of us considering using the product. Would the recommendation differ at all for AP2 customers (2.2L, 8K red line)?
02-27-2006, 05:22 PM
#19
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Thread Starter
Thank you LiquidCosworth for such a detailed response. Just a few more questions:
1. In your PAO / ester blend, what kind of esters do you use?
2. What grade do you use in your F1 engines? I'm guessing ??W50?
3. Do you trade some wear protection for low friction (power output) in your formulations, or vice versa? What about change intervals for low friction or wear protection (thus the lower TBN #'s)? What is the focus?
4. Do you know any other motor oil mfr's that sell the exact same oil used in their F1 engines. I believe Mobil 1 sponsors McLaren, Castrol / BMW, Shell / Ferrari, not sure about Honda??
5. I've heard that if you have a very good oil with excellent film strength (like Redline / Cosworth??), it is possible to use a thinner oil than recommended by the mfr. to maximize power output without sacrificing durability due to the superior film strength of these oils. Thus for the S2000, using something thinner than a 10W30 like a 0W30 or 0W20. Do you see anything wrong with this practice?
6. Will you ever sell your oil at any retailers or are you mail order only?
Thanks!
1. In your PAO / ester blend, what kind of esters do you use?
2. What grade do you use in your F1 engines? I'm guessing ??W50?
3. Do you trade some wear protection for low friction (power output) in your formulations, or vice versa? What about change intervals for low friction or wear protection (thus the lower TBN #'s)? What is the focus?
4. Do you know any other motor oil mfr's that sell the exact same oil used in their F1 engines. I believe Mobil 1 sponsors McLaren, Castrol / BMW, Shell / Ferrari, not sure about Honda??
5. I've heard that if you have a very good oil with excellent film strength (like Redline / Cosworth??), it is possible to use a thinner oil than recommended by the mfr. to maximize power output without sacrificing durability due to the superior film strength of these oils. Thus for the S2000, using something thinner than a 10W30 like a 0W30 or 0W20. Do you see anything wrong with this practice?
6. Will you ever sell your oil at any retailers or are you mail order only?
Thanks!
02-28-2006, 04:38 AM
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Hello Chazmo,
For your year-round use, the SAE 0W-30 would be ideal. You'll have very good low temperature starting characteristics and the ambient temperature doesn't get hot enough to think about going up in viscosity grade. You've probably heard this, but if the recommendation is a 5W-30 or 10W-30, then using a 0W-30 provides the same viscosity when warmed up but behaves better at low temperatures. Higher revs don't automatically mean needing a thicker oil.
Hello, LUVNMBRS,
We use a diester rather than polyol esters and formulate with the additive(s) to manage the overall formulation characteristics.
The F1 engines run to 19,000+ and use 0W-20.
No, you can't tolerate wear and still expect to have low friction. Low friction is the sum of low fluid friction (oil pump effort, hydrodynamic bearings) and low boundary lubrication (valve train, cylinder walls.) The first is a function of viscosity, the second is a function of additives that are bound to the metals surfaces.
TBN is only a measure of the chemical strength to neutralize acids, and is also only a point of reference for when the oil is new. It helps to control corrosive attack from the exhaust blow by, especially if it chemically reacts with sulfur in the fuel. Initial TBN does not predict TBN retention, or how long this performance lasts. By itself it's not necessarily a good indicator of change interval length.
The focus is on engine performance and reliability; not necessarily fuel economy or extended drain (although those attributes are there.) Low friction, protection in all engines under the broadest performance envelope, and durability of the oil are key. Read more by clicking the "technical" button on the engine oil product page on our site.
I can't say if any other oil companies sell exactly the same formulation. I mean that even if I knew, I could not tell. But read the advertising...
As touched on above, a thinner oil with proper additive treatments, will provide a benefit. The practice depends on somewhat on monitoring oil temperatures, engine components that use the oil as a hydraulic fluid (variable valve timing controls) and oil pump pressure settings.
The oiling system has a certain amount of "spillage and splash" to lubricate valve trains and cylinder walls. This depends on mechanical design such as the diameter of a squirt nozzle. You would want to know if the oil pump has enough volume and pressure to prevent bleeding down too much at the end of a lubrication passageway.
We plan to sell at shops that currently install Cosworth parts, or other outlets that have the enthusiast market at heart. However, we would like to make our online store a first choice as best we can. We offer free shipping, tax is collected only in NY and CA, or you may call 800 355-5880. I would be very interested in your comments that either compare online to walk-in stores or how we can make our online store better. Thanks.
For your year-round use, the SAE 0W-30 would be ideal. You'll have very good low temperature starting characteristics and the ambient temperature doesn't get hot enough to think about going up in viscosity grade. You've probably heard this, but if the recommendation is a 5W-30 or 10W-30, then using a 0W-30 provides the same viscosity when warmed up but behaves better at low temperatures. Higher revs don't automatically mean needing a thicker oil.
Hello, LUVNMBRS,
We use a diester rather than polyol esters and formulate with the additive(s) to manage the overall formulation characteristics.
The F1 engines run to 19,000+ and use 0W-20.
No, you can't tolerate wear and still expect to have low friction. Low friction is the sum of low fluid friction (oil pump effort, hydrodynamic bearings) and low boundary lubrication (valve train, cylinder walls.) The first is a function of viscosity, the second is a function of additives that are bound to the metals surfaces.
TBN is only a measure of the chemical strength to neutralize acids, and is also only a point of reference for when the oil is new. It helps to control corrosive attack from the exhaust blow by, especially if it chemically reacts with sulfur in the fuel. Initial TBN does not predict TBN retention, or how long this performance lasts. By itself it's not necessarily a good indicator of change interval length.
The focus is on engine performance and reliability; not necessarily fuel economy or extended drain (although those attributes are there.) Low friction, protection in all engines under the broadest performance envelope, and durability of the oil are key. Read more by clicking the "technical" button on the engine oil product page on our site.
I can't say if any other oil companies sell exactly the same formulation. I mean that even if I knew, I could not tell. But read the advertising...
As touched on above, a thinner oil with proper additive treatments, will provide a benefit. The practice depends on somewhat on monitoring oil temperatures, engine components that use the oil as a hydraulic fluid (variable valve timing controls) and oil pump pressure settings.
The oiling system has a certain amount of "spillage and splash" to lubricate valve trains and cylinder walls. This depends on mechanical design such as the diameter of a squirt nozzle. You would want to know if the oil pump has enough volume and pressure to prevent bleeding down too much at the end of a lubrication passageway.
We plan to sell at shops that currently install Cosworth parts, or other outlets that have the enthusiast market at heart. However, we would like to make our online store a first choice as best we can. We offer free shipping, tax is collected only in NY and CA, or you may call 800 355-5880. I would be very interested in your comments that either compare online to walk-in stores or how we can make our online store better. Thanks.