J's racing f22C
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From: SF, California
Originally Posted by terd ferguson' date='Feb 16 2005, 04:34 PM
With all due respect, you sir, are a retard. Oh, and I've already got my own bridge.
don't you know that people that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones..... You said opak dynoed a spoon engine at 247whp which was 50hp over stock(according to you). The spoon engine is just a tight tolerance OEM spec engine, it's nothing special and other dynos have shown this. +50 over stock has never been shown with any spoon engine prior and it isn't the case here. Sure I'll bet they got 247rwhp on a dyno, but that was a dynopak with all the rest of the spoon goodies. Comparing that to 200rwhp on a dynojet is silly. Consider the 2.2L It has been listed at 242 on a dynopak, does it produce +45 rwhp over a stock 2.0L? No of course not. It produces about 12-18rwhp over stock 2.0L and I'm sure that's what the entire spoon setup I/H/E/ECU/Engine made. Considering what the rest of the spoon parts make that leaves +5-8hp for the spoon engine over stock. This would be consistent with a P/P engine with slightly higher compression than a USDM s2k.
The claim that it was making +50hp was silly and beyond what anyone could expect to believe considering what was done to that engine. You should have known better than to believe some hype without first questioning if it made sense for a non-stroked engine to make near that power. I'd hate to think that you'd end up buying overhyped parts that don't live up to their performance claims.
Also FYI...the best header/exhaust combo(it's actually all one piece) for performance isn't JDM it's USDM. Ask greenlight if his custom cams make more power than the Toda versions. The JDM companies make great parts, but they're not the only thing on the market.....don't be blinded by the belief that what you get from JDM companies are race parts, they're at least a couple generations behind what they use in their cars. Hell look at cusco parts off the shelf parts and tell me that they are even remotely the same as to what cusco puts in real race cars.
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Joined: Mar 2004
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From: Concord. NC
Originally Posted by ultimate lurker' date='Feb 16 2005, 06:01 PM
The J's motor is insanely expensive for the relative power you get. Here's an example of why:
Karner's F22C race engine started out as a brand new short block from Honda. It cost $2500 jobber. It came completely assembled. All we had to do was bolt on our head and sensors from the 2.0 liter. Took about 2 hours. If you didn't want to reuse your head, you could buy a new core from Honda for $1200 retail (less jobber I'm sure). You might as well reuse your cams (we did) as they only take 20 minutes to swap in (before a valve adjustment). We had a valve job done by Joe Alaniz to HC legal specs. Retail on his work was probably about $800. We also put in Ti retainers at about $300. We reused the stock TB and intake manifold. Total time to assemble the motor (and I am not a motor builder, just going by the book) was about 5 hours including the head install, cam swap and sensor swap. That's $4800 in parts if you don't reuse your head, and, if we paid someone to do the labor, about $400 there. This motor, with just an AEM EMS and some tuning put down 3 hp more than the average 350Z on my dyno, and 15 hp more than the best 2004-2005 Acura TL I've ever dyno'd - that's why I say 285-290 crank hp.
There is more waiting in there to be sure, but this is an example of how simple it is to get that power. With the J's you're going to spend $10k for 10 hp more (we'll have to dyno it I guess to be sure, maybe they underrate it in which case the equation changes). Even if you include the cost of AEM tuning on the "stock" motor, you're still only looking at $5600 out the door. A J's motor at $10k still requires you to use their ECU and other bolt on's I bet, does it even come with an intake manifold? I was checking their 2.0 liter N1 spec motor (looks like about $5k in Japan w/core exchange) and they use OEM pistons, rods, etc. and just balance the motor. Is that really worth it?
This is not to say J's or any of those guys do bad work, but when you really look at what you get, it's hard to justify unless the brand/bling is important to you. If it is, go for it!
UL
Karner's F22C race engine started out as a brand new short block from Honda. It cost $2500 jobber. It came completely assembled. All we had to do was bolt on our head and sensors from the 2.0 liter. Took about 2 hours. If you didn't want to reuse your head, you could buy a new core from Honda for $1200 retail (less jobber I'm sure). You might as well reuse your cams (we did) as they only take 20 minutes to swap in (before a valve adjustment). We had a valve job done by Joe Alaniz to HC legal specs. Retail on his work was probably about $800. We also put in Ti retainers at about $300. We reused the stock TB and intake manifold. Total time to assemble the motor (and I am not a motor builder, just going by the book) was about 5 hours including the head install, cam swap and sensor swap. That's $4800 in parts if you don't reuse your head, and, if we paid someone to do the labor, about $400 there. This motor, with just an AEM EMS and some tuning put down 3 hp more than the average 350Z on my dyno, and 15 hp more than the best 2004-2005 Acura TL I've ever dyno'd - that's why I say 285-290 crank hp.
There is more waiting in there to be sure, but this is an example of how simple it is to get that power. With the J's you're going to spend $10k for 10 hp more (we'll have to dyno it I guess to be sure, maybe they underrate it in which case the equation changes). Even if you include the cost of AEM tuning on the "stock" motor, you're still only looking at $5600 out the door. A J's motor at $10k still requires you to use their ECU and other bolt on's I bet, does it even come with an intake manifold? I was checking their 2.0 liter N1 spec motor (looks like about $5k in Japan w/core exchange) and they use OEM pistons, rods, etc. and just balance the motor. Is that really worth it?
This is not to say J's or any of those guys do bad work, but when you really look at what you get, it's hard to justify unless the brand/bling is important to you. If it is, go for it!
UL
No offense, but your $5600 motor isn't as cost effective as it would seem. The 11 grand I quoted earlier was including labor and accessories (oil filter lock and other little J's engine knick knacks) I believe. Remember, 9 grand for 300 ps and 30 kgm. For those who don't know 1 ps = .984 hp, and a truck will drop it off at your house.
This guy got 21 hp on a Mustang dyno with i/h/e and EMS with a great gain seen in the delta plots. These parts and tuning probably add up to 4 grand. This is the same shop that did the J's swap.
https://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showt...l=p1+dyno+plots
You never listed numbers for your $5600 motor, but said it was 3 hp better than the average 350Z. I checked the 350Z forums and they put down between 226 and 238 stock. So, does your motor put down around 240 to the wheels? If so, 4 grand more for 50 more hp is with the 2.2 J's motor is not that bad.
Please don't take offense at my comments. They aren't meant to offend, only to comapre facts to facts.
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From: Concord. NC
Originally Posted by CrazyPhuD' date='Feb 16 2005, 06:54 PM
Now now now.... don't you know that people that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.....
You said opak dynoed a spoon engine at 247whp which was 50hp over stock(according to you). The spoon engine is just a tight tolerance OEM spec engine, it's nothing special and other dynos have shown this. +50 over stock has never been shown with any spoon engine prior and it isn't the case here. Sure I'll bet they got 247rwhp on a dyno, but that was a dynopak with all the rest of the spoon goodies. Comparing that to 200rwhp on a dynojet is silly. Consider the 2.2L It has been listed at 242 on a dynopak, does it produce +45 rwhp over a stock 2.0L? No of course not. It produces about 12-18rwhp over stock 2.0L and I'm sure that's what the entire spoon setup I/H/E/ECU/Engine made. Considering what the rest of the spoon parts make that leaves +5-8hp for the spoon engine over stock. This would be consistent with a P/P engine with slightly higher compression than a USDM s2k.
The claim that it was making +50hp was silly and beyond what anyone could expect to believe considering what was done to that engine. You should have known better than to believe some hype without first questioning if it made sense for a non-stroked engine to make near that power. I'd hate to think that you'd end up buying overhyped parts that don't live up to their performance claims.
Also FYI...the best header/exhaust combo(it's actually all one piece) for performance isn't JDM it's USDM. Ask greenlight if his custom cams make more power than the Toda versions. The JDM companies make great parts, but they're not the only thing on the market.....don't be blinded by the belief that what you get from JDM companies are race parts, they're at least a couple generations behind what they use in their cars. Hell look at cusco parts off the shelf parts and tell me that they are even remotely the same as to what cusco puts in real race cars.
don't you know that people that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones..... You said opak dynoed a spoon engine at 247whp which was 50hp over stock(according to you). The spoon engine is just a tight tolerance OEM spec engine, it's nothing special and other dynos have shown this. +50 over stock has never been shown with any spoon engine prior and it isn't the case here. Sure I'll bet they got 247rwhp on a dyno, but that was a dynopak with all the rest of the spoon goodies. Comparing that to 200rwhp on a dynojet is silly. Consider the 2.2L It has been listed at 242 on a dynopak, does it produce +45 rwhp over a stock 2.0L? No of course not. It produces about 12-18rwhp over stock 2.0L and I'm sure that's what the entire spoon setup I/H/E/ECU/Engine made. Considering what the rest of the spoon parts make that leaves +5-8hp for the spoon engine over stock. This would be consistent with a P/P engine with slightly higher compression than a USDM s2k.
The claim that it was making +50hp was silly and beyond what anyone could expect to believe considering what was done to that engine. You should have known better than to believe some hype without first questioning if it made sense for a non-stroked engine to make near that power. I'd hate to think that you'd end up buying overhyped parts that don't live up to their performance claims.
Also FYI...the best header/exhaust combo(it's actually all one piece) for performance isn't JDM it's USDM. Ask greenlight if his custom cams make more power than the Toda versions. The JDM companies make great parts, but they're not the only thing on the market.....don't be blinded by the belief that what you get from JDM companies are race parts, they're at least a couple generations behind what they use in their cars. Hell look at cusco parts off the shelf parts and tell me that they are even remotely the same as to what cusco puts in real race cars.
Show me the one piece USDM one piece header/exhaust combo dyno results. Then tell me who makes it. After some research, I would consider purchasing it if it is more cost effective than it's JDM counterparts.
I am not blinded by JDM. I don't think I'm buying race parts. I believe in a sports tuning philosophy. I still have a/c and a radio and always will. I buy parts that enhance sports driving enjoyment. Go to worldlingo.com and translate my sig. Too lazy? Here you go...
Ok, I just reverse translated it back to English.
Phrase before translation: "Terd Ferguson says power and light weight are the key to sports drivng pleasure."
English phrase translated to Japanese: "terd のferguson は明度及び力が楽しみを運転するス ーツへキーであることを言う"
Japanese phrase translated back to English: "Ferguson of terd means that it is the key to the sport where the lightness and power drive the pleasure."
I guess it lost a little in the translation.
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From: Concord. NC
Originally Posted by AusS2000' date='Feb 16 2005, 06:13 PM
You really need to settle down. You take some hyperbolic view of mystatement and argue against it. Be my guest, but I never said anyone was a prick. I just said if you're biased towards JDM then don't try and justify it any other way.
Thomas Jefferson said that most of a our so called reasoning is a search for evidence to support what we want to believe. I think that opinion is as valid today as it was when he said it.
Thomas Jefferson said that most of a our so called reasoning is a search for evidence to support what we want to believe. I think that opinion is as valid today as it was when he said it.
Cheers mate.
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From: SF, California
Originally Posted by terd ferguson' date='Feb 16 2005, 07:08 PM
For the record, I never said Opak dynoed the engine. I only vaguely recalled a post about some guy with a Spoon crate motor from Opak and dyno results of 247 whp. I take people at their word. If he's lying, well too bad for him.
Show me the one piece USDM one piece header/exhaust combo dyno results. Then tell me who makes it. After some research, I would consider purchasing it if it is more cost effective than it's JDM counterparts.
I am not blinded by JDM. I don't think I'm buying race parts. I believe in a sports tuning philosophy. I still have a/c and a radio and always will. I buy parts that enhance sports driving enjoyment. Go to worldlingo.com and translate my sig. Too lazy? Here you go...
Show me the one piece USDM one piece header/exhaust combo dyno results. Then tell me who makes it. After some research, I would consider purchasing it if it is more cost effective than it's JDM counterparts.
I am not blinded by JDM. I don't think I'm buying race parts. I believe in a sports tuning philosophy. I still have a/c and a radio and always will. I buy parts that enhance sports driving enjoyment. Go to worldlingo.com and translate my sig. Too lazy? Here you go...
It's not that the guy was lying when he said he put out 247rwhp....he was just most likely using a dynapak not a dynojet. That is is the problem you were comparing apples to oranges and common sense should have told you it didn't seem right.Quoting numbers form HyperRev is also very questionable. These are 'marketing' numbers, without reliable independent testing it's hard to say how accurate they are. I'm sure they got that number once....but is it repeatable...that is the question. With marketing numbers all you need is proof that you hit it once. This is also why you have to be careful about dyno shop's touting gains for a specific product. When the calculate the gain I'm sure they'll compare the worst versus the best, not the average for each case which may result in inaccurate reporting.
As for the header/exhaust combo. I forget the specific name of the company that made it. There was only one that was made and I believe that it was 5K to build, it sold used here a couple of months back for 2-3K. Made by one of the most reputable race builders around, I'm sure someone else will remember the name. If not I'll look and see if I can find it. Not cheap at all but it was one of the best. The reason that only one was made was because they couldn't get enough interest from people to build more too $$$$.
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From: The Beach, CA
Terd, I think there's a large gap in your understanding of power outputs that various dyno's give out. Not all dyno's are the same. Comparing the power shown on one dyno on one day cant be compared to a totally different dyno on another day. They just put out different numbers even on the same motors. Plain simple fact.
The motor UL was talking about would actually make around the same power as the J's and i'm sure without the 100 octane to boot.
The motor UL was talking about would actually make around the same power as the J's and i'm sure without the 100 octane to boot.
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Joined: Jan 2004
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From: SF, California
Oh and the exhaust header that I was talking about was the Hytech that topfuel had. I swear there were actual numbers somewhere(topfuel liked to delete his posts later) and I know there were actual pictures on the for sale setup.
Now comparision to the products that hytech makes here's an article about their RSX project....
http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-ar...icle_id=101836
Now comparision to the products that hytech makes here's an article about their RSX project....
http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-ar...icle_id=101836
