smyroad

Has anyone seen my 5th gear? It was there several weeks ago, now it's gone.

Actually that was about a year ago, now it's fixed.
1) It was the result of not using 5th - Moving quickly through 1-2-3 maybe 4 and directly to 6th. No grinding sound during shifting.
2) Cause was supposedly mushrooming of the sleeve teeth due to the syncros handling the velocity difference between input shaft and output shaft. The sleeve is soft metal because the torque per tooth is relatively low. Problem is the push from the synchros is enough to mushroom the ends.
3) Honda mechanic fixed it by forcing it into fifth, requiring much more force than I was willing use.
4) Mechanic said this IS a PROBLEM in other HONDA 6 speed transmissions.
5) This is not caused by abuse - unless skipping 5th is a crime.

There is even a TSB about this problem, but the fixes are bogus - "regrease the shift fork"?!?!.

CrazyPhuD

Hmmmm....so here's a question for those who skip gears? Why do you do it?
I've never done it and I don't really understand why you would want to. I can understand why people may skip going down but why skip going up(irrespective of the damage it could cause).

I redline shift many times a day whenever I get onto the highway. Once I shift at red in 3rd I shut down and shift 4,5,6 to get into cruise. It takes a few 10ths of a second to do it(and yes it's clutch in and out for each gear) I do this unconsciously.

So why do people skip, it takes no time, are people just lazy, or are they trying to save their clutch?

kane.s2k

I used to do it because I'm lazy. After reading this, never again.

xviper

= NAIL ON HEAD!

Gernby

I don't skip gears anymore either, but not due to the S2000's issues or this thread. The 5th gear in my '90 Ingegra GS started grinding at about 50K miles. I took it to a tranny shop, where I was told that there were 2 probable causes: 1) skipping gears and 2) lugging it (driving too slow for the current gear). They said that skipping gears overloaded the synchros, and lugging it overloaded the bearings. I never really knew which it was, since I regularly did both. I rarely used 3rd or 4th gears, since I would accellerate WOT to redline through 1st and 2nd then throw it into 5th. I would also drive at 30 MPH in 5th quite a bit.

l8brakr

Does this apply if you run through the gears with the clutch in instead of skipping the gear completely? That is what I've always done. Sidenote, my Z28 used to force you to skip from 1st to 4th on part throttle at a certain speed range (until I got the disabler). How Honda or anybody for that matter is getting away with calling that abuse is beyond me. If you don't want me to choose any gear I want when I want then make the car an automatic. They would obviously lose me as a customer but it's not an excuse to underengineer their components.

xviper

As I tried to explain in another post, the "CAGS" system is dictated by the computer. I will allow this skip shift to happen only if certain conditions of throttle position, rpm, engine load, are met. It won't do it if these parameters are not met. I had two such vehicles (with CAGS) and in both of those, if the driver were to circumvent the "computer parameters" for skip shifting, like going to high rpm in a lower gear and then skip shifting to a high gear, the gear box did not feel right either.
I don't recall seeing anywhere that Honda said it was "abuse". I think they just "recommend" not to do it because the "human" operator may not always do a skip shift in the correct manner.

dhayner

It's the input shaft of the transmission that has to be brought DOWN to speed by double-clutching.

I do it quite often, usually 2nd to 5th, for this reason: I can VTEC in 1st and 2nd without exceeding the speed limit by too much, but can't accelerate to higher speeds without attracting attention from the cops. I'm up to a speed where 5th is good for cruising, so I shift to 5th.

I do this gently, so hope that I'm not damaging the 5-6 sleeve - Woodwork?

Lugging can overload the engine bearings (high gas load, low hydrodynamic film strength), but shouldn't hurt transmission bearings. Input speed and torque are both low.

Denis

dlq04

Woodwork, thank you for the photos and more detailed explaination. Frankly, when I saw your comment some time ago that skipping a gear on the upshift was bad, I couldn't believe it nor could I understand why. I raised the question with several gear heads and they were puzzled as well.

Why one might skip a gear? Easy. If one assumes that is no harm done, then it is easy to see why. It's not from being lazy. Like dhayner said, I too often VTEC in 1-4 and find myself looking in the mirors, so I ease off and slip it in 6th to give both my ears and my engine a break while avoiding a ticket as well. Since I heard it was unhealthy to skip breakfast (I mean 5th), I've stop it. One must adapt to one's motor car, ah old chap.

PS- xviper I like your new 'sort out the tech'y stuff reorganization'; it's appreciated.

Gernby

Double clutching on an upshift seems rediculous to me. The input shaft will slow down on its own.