Ethics
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,868
Likes: 1,058
Originally Posted by anarky,May 5 2005, 07:30 AM
Have you heard Bill sing????????????????
no but I'm waiting for someone to post an mpg.On another note, this is the earliest street racing law I could find in the US.
1674 - Plymouth Law Prohibits Running Horses in the Streets
Many towns and cities in America have streets called "Race Street". Such streets gained their names from the habit of running horse races on them. In 1674, the citizens of Plymouth evidently grew tired or frightened of the races in their villages, and created an ordinance forbidding racing. However, the sting of the fine or the humiliation of the stocks did not seem to discourage the colonial racing enthusiasts. About a century later, Connecticut enacted a law which demanded the forfeit of a man's horse, in addition to a fine of forty shillings, if he was caught racing in the streets.
I kind of like the idea of stocks
fltsfshr
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 34,130
Likes: 126
From: Canton, MA
1. Young person asks for help from S2KI members in convincing parents to purchase S2000 for him. Parents are reluctant because young person wrecked last car in street race. He blames accident on elderly Florida drivers.
Did you expect "young Person" to do anything different? If mom and dad are buying cars, why not ask for what you want? I'm not sure about ethics here. Sounds more like spoiled child syndrome.
2. S2KI contributor gets ticket outside of home state of California. Another S2KI contributor recommends telling the judge he just moved to state in which he got ticket so the judge won't be unduly influenced by fact that defendant is from out of state.
Do you think this advice has something to do with the fact that an "Out of Stater" is actually treated more harshly than a resident, despite the fact that equal justice is supposed to be a founding principle of this country? Hell, I get treated worse as an "out of towner" by neigboring authorities.
3. S2KI contributor with modified S2000 has difficulty receiving services under extended warranty. Warranty states that modifications void warranty. Contributor apparently never read warranty and maligns Honda dealership and Honda USA for "shoddy" service. Other S2KI contributors nominate dealership for Black Ball list.
Not sure about the extended warranty, but the factory warranty is only voided if the mod causes the problem. Honda will often try to avoid thier obligations due to the presence of mods on a car, without proving, or even trying to prove, that the mod is the cause of the problem. Why should owners have the burden of proof that the mod did not cause the problem? Where is that written? If the extended warranty differs from the factory warranty, then don't call it "extended." Extended strongly implies the same factory warranty for a longer period of time.
4. Driver admits to exceeding speed limit by a substantial margin and receives ticket for multiple violations. Driver extols his considerable driving skills and asks advice for mitigating resulting consequences.
I want a front row seat to meet the person who owns and S and does not exceed the speed limit and does not try to mitigate the consequences when they get caught. After I meet Jesus, I'll feel much better about the future. As for braging about "skills", I'm with you. Most of these drivers know where the gas pedal is, and that's about it.
5. S2KI contributors boast of street racing activities and describe driving experiences that could only be described as reckless. In same post, claim that police are harassing them by hanging around and monitoring activities.
Typical dumbasses. Just like me when I was a kid.
6. Young contributor who cannot write two consecutive comprehendible sentences, can't spell, and uses no capitalization or punctuation, requests suggestions regarding how to spend several thousand dollars on modifications to his S2000.
Thank god he found a way to earn money.
6. S2KI contributors ask advice on how to circumvent smog inspection, how to cover up warranty-busting modifications or activities to obtain otherwise denied services, how to reduce insurance costs by claiming false residence, how to bypass OEM anti-theft equipment, etc., etc., etc.
Smog inspection is an unpopular law, especially when it is tied to the equipment on your car, rather than the polutants coming out of your car. See above for my response to the "warranty busting mods" myth. When Honda is God, I'll accept their denial of services without question, until then, I may be right and they may be wrong. Claiming false residence is wrong and I'm with you on that one. Why can't I learn to bypass my oem anti theft equipment?
I'm sort of with flts on this one. Most of the examples given are not my idea of ethics problems.
Jeff, just for that comment. I'm gonna sing at the next meet!
Did you expect "young Person" to do anything different? If mom and dad are buying cars, why not ask for what you want? I'm not sure about ethics here. Sounds more like spoiled child syndrome.
2. S2KI contributor gets ticket outside of home state of California. Another S2KI contributor recommends telling the judge he just moved to state in which he got ticket so the judge won't be unduly influenced by fact that defendant is from out of state.
Do you think this advice has something to do with the fact that an "Out of Stater" is actually treated more harshly than a resident, despite the fact that equal justice is supposed to be a founding principle of this country? Hell, I get treated worse as an "out of towner" by neigboring authorities.
3. S2KI contributor with modified S2000 has difficulty receiving services under extended warranty. Warranty states that modifications void warranty. Contributor apparently never read warranty and maligns Honda dealership and Honda USA for "shoddy" service. Other S2KI contributors nominate dealership for Black Ball list.
Not sure about the extended warranty, but the factory warranty is only voided if the mod causes the problem. Honda will often try to avoid thier obligations due to the presence of mods on a car, without proving, or even trying to prove, that the mod is the cause of the problem. Why should owners have the burden of proof that the mod did not cause the problem? Where is that written? If the extended warranty differs from the factory warranty, then don't call it "extended." Extended strongly implies the same factory warranty for a longer period of time.
4. Driver admits to exceeding speed limit by a substantial margin and receives ticket for multiple violations. Driver extols his considerable driving skills and asks advice for mitigating resulting consequences.
I want a front row seat to meet the person who owns and S and does not exceed the speed limit and does not try to mitigate the consequences when they get caught. After I meet Jesus, I'll feel much better about the future. As for braging about "skills", I'm with you. Most of these drivers know where the gas pedal is, and that's about it.
5. S2KI contributors boast of street racing activities and describe driving experiences that could only be described as reckless. In same post, claim that police are harassing them by hanging around and monitoring activities.
Typical dumbasses. Just like me when I was a kid.
6. Young contributor who cannot write two consecutive comprehendible sentences, can't spell, and uses no capitalization or punctuation, requests suggestions regarding how to spend several thousand dollars on modifications to his S2000.
Thank god he found a way to earn money.
6. S2KI contributors ask advice on how to circumvent smog inspection, how to cover up warranty-busting modifications or activities to obtain otherwise denied services, how to reduce insurance costs by claiming false residence, how to bypass OEM anti-theft equipment, etc., etc., etc.
Smog inspection is an unpopular law, especially when it is tied to the equipment on your car, rather than the polutants coming out of your car. See above for my response to the "warranty busting mods" myth. When Honda is God, I'll accept their denial of services without question, until then, I may be right and they may be wrong. Claiming false residence is wrong and I'm with you on that one. Why can't I learn to bypass my oem anti theft equipment?
I'm sort of with flts on this one. Most of the examples given are not my idea of ethics problems.
Jeff, just for that comment. I'm gonna sing at the next meet!
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,897
Likes: 1
From: Cherry Hill, NJ
I feel I'm a Stage 6 on the scale below.
I think cops are Stage 4, and will never advance past that stage. What's right and wrong doesn't matter to them , just the law, whatever it happens to be at the moment.
I once read an article by Zig Ziglar where he talked about his kids asking why he had a radar detector in his car. He came to the conclusion that he shouldn't have one, as he should not break the law (speed limit) in the first place.
In my opinion, when the law is written so that it automatically creates criminals (eg, when the speed limit dropped to 55 back in the '70s; when marijuana became illegal, etc), this does not make it morally right, and I refuse to follow it.
Dave.
Stages of Moral Development notes
by Lawrence Kohlberg (1971)
I. Preconventional Level
At this level, the child is responsive to cultural rules and labels of good and bad, right or wrong, but he interprets the labels in terms of either the physical or hedonistic consequences of action (punishment, reward, exchange of favors) or the physical power of those who enunciate the rules and labels. The level is divided into the following three stages:
Stage 0: Egocentric judgement. The child makes judgements of good on the basis of what he likes and wants or what helps him, and bad on the basis of what he does not like or what hurts him. He has no concept of rules or of obligations to obey or conform independent of his wish.
Stage 1: The punishment and obedience orientation. The physical consequences of action determine its goodness or badness regardless of the human meaning or value of these consequences. Avoidance of punishment and unquestioning deference to power are values in their own right, not in terms of respect for an underlying moral order supported by punishment and authority (the latter is stage 4).
Stage 2: The instrumental relativist orientation. Right action consists of what instrumentally satisfies one's own needs and occasionally the needs of others. Human relations are viewed in terms such as those of the market place. Elements of fairness, reciprocity, and equal sharing are present, but they are always interpreted in a physical, pragmatic way. Reciprocity is a matter of "you scratch my back and I'll scratch your", not loyalty, gratitude, or justice.
II. Conventional Level
At this level, the individual perceives the maintenance of the expectations of his family, group, or nation as valuable in its own right, regardless of immediate and obvious consequences. The attitude is not only one of conformity to personal expectations and social order, but of loyalty to it, of actively maintaining, supporting, and justifying the order and identifying with the persons or group involved in it. The level consists of the following two stages:
Stage 3: The interpersonal concordance or "good boy-nice girl" orientation. Good behavior is what pleases or helps others and is approved by them. There is much conformity to stereotypical images of what is majority or "natural" behavior. Behavior is frequently judged by intention -- "he means well" becomes important for the first time. One earns approval by being "nice".
Stage 4: The "law and order" orientation. The individual is oriented toward authority, fixed rules, and the maintenance of the social order. Right behavior consists in doing one's duty, showing respect for authority, and maintaining the given social order for its own sake.
III. Post-Conventional, Autonomous, or Principled Level.
The individual makes a clear effort to define moral values and principles that have validity and application apart from the authority of the groups of persons holding them and apart from the individual's own identification with the group. The level has the two following stages:
Stage 5: The social-contract legalistic orientation (generally with utilitarian overtones). Right action tends to be defined in terms of general individual rights and standards that have been critically examined and agreed upon by the whole society. There is a clear awareness of the relativism of personal values and opinions and a corresponding emphasis upon procedural rules for reaching consensus. Aside from what is constitutionally and democratically agreed upon, right action is a matter of personal values and opinions. The result is an emphasis upon the "legal point of view", but with an additional emphasis upon the possibility of changing the law in terms of rational considerations of social utility (rather than freezing it in terms of stage 4 "law and order"). Outside the legal realm, free agreement, and contract, is the binding element of obligation. The "official" morality of the American government and Constitution is at this stage.
Stage 6: The universal ethical-principle orientation. Right is defined by the decision of conscience in accord with self-chosen ethical principles that appeal to logical comprehensiveness, universality, and consistency. These principles are abstract and ethical (the Golden Rule, the categorical imperative); they are not concrete moral rules like the Ten Commandments. At heart, these are universal principles of justice, of the reciprocity and equality of the human rights, and of respect for the dignity of human beings as individual persons.
I think cops are Stage 4, and will never advance past that stage. What's right and wrong doesn't matter to them , just the law, whatever it happens to be at the moment.
I once read an article by Zig Ziglar where he talked about his kids asking why he had a radar detector in his car. He came to the conclusion that he shouldn't have one, as he should not break the law (speed limit) in the first place.
In my opinion, when the law is written so that it automatically creates criminals (eg, when the speed limit dropped to 55 back in the '70s; when marijuana became illegal, etc), this does not make it morally right, and I refuse to follow it.
Dave.
Stages of Moral Development notes
by Lawrence Kohlberg (1971)
I. Preconventional Level
At this level, the child is responsive to cultural rules and labels of good and bad, right or wrong, but he interprets the labels in terms of either the physical or hedonistic consequences of action (punishment, reward, exchange of favors) or the physical power of those who enunciate the rules and labels. The level is divided into the following three stages:
Stage 0: Egocentric judgement. The child makes judgements of good on the basis of what he likes and wants or what helps him, and bad on the basis of what he does not like or what hurts him. He has no concept of rules or of obligations to obey or conform independent of his wish.
Stage 1: The punishment and obedience orientation. The physical consequences of action determine its goodness or badness regardless of the human meaning or value of these consequences. Avoidance of punishment and unquestioning deference to power are values in their own right, not in terms of respect for an underlying moral order supported by punishment and authority (the latter is stage 4).
Stage 2: The instrumental relativist orientation. Right action consists of what instrumentally satisfies one's own needs and occasionally the needs of others. Human relations are viewed in terms such as those of the market place. Elements of fairness, reciprocity, and equal sharing are present, but they are always interpreted in a physical, pragmatic way. Reciprocity is a matter of "you scratch my back and I'll scratch your", not loyalty, gratitude, or justice.
II. Conventional Level
At this level, the individual perceives the maintenance of the expectations of his family, group, or nation as valuable in its own right, regardless of immediate and obvious consequences. The attitude is not only one of conformity to personal expectations and social order, but of loyalty to it, of actively maintaining, supporting, and justifying the order and identifying with the persons or group involved in it. The level consists of the following two stages:
Stage 3: The interpersonal concordance or "good boy-nice girl" orientation. Good behavior is what pleases or helps others and is approved by them. There is much conformity to stereotypical images of what is majority or "natural" behavior. Behavior is frequently judged by intention -- "he means well" becomes important for the first time. One earns approval by being "nice".
Stage 4: The "law and order" orientation. The individual is oriented toward authority, fixed rules, and the maintenance of the social order. Right behavior consists in doing one's duty, showing respect for authority, and maintaining the given social order for its own sake.
III. Post-Conventional, Autonomous, or Principled Level.
The individual makes a clear effort to define moral values and principles that have validity and application apart from the authority of the groups of persons holding them and apart from the individual's own identification with the group. The level has the two following stages:
Stage 5: The social-contract legalistic orientation (generally with utilitarian overtones). Right action tends to be defined in terms of general individual rights and standards that have been critically examined and agreed upon by the whole society. There is a clear awareness of the relativism of personal values and opinions and a corresponding emphasis upon procedural rules for reaching consensus. Aside from what is constitutionally and democratically agreed upon, right action is a matter of personal values and opinions. The result is an emphasis upon the "legal point of view", but with an additional emphasis upon the possibility of changing the law in terms of rational considerations of social utility (rather than freezing it in terms of stage 4 "law and order"). Outside the legal realm, free agreement, and contract, is the binding element of obligation. The "official" morality of the American government and Constitution is at this stage.
Stage 6: The universal ethical-principle orientation. Right is defined by the decision of conscience in accord with self-chosen ethical principles that appeal to logical comprehensiveness, universality, and consistency. These principles are abstract and ethical (the Golden Rule, the categorical imperative); they are not concrete moral rules like the Ten Commandments. At heart, these are universal principles of justice, of the reciprocity and equality of the human rights, and of respect for the dignity of human beings as individual persons.
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 313
Likes: 0
From: Connecticut, USA
The question of ethics is, quite obviously, very complex. The 6 stages listed ultimately lead to some personal interpretation if right and wrong. This is great as a concept for thoughtful and moral citizens, but there is so much gray area it leaves very much room for "unethical" or even criminal behavior.
The whole concept of ethics is obfuscated by examples commonly seen in society. Monetary success is valued, rewarded and generally desired by all of society. Thereby, many (most?) successful people become role models whether they want to or not. The examples they set slowly become the standards for society at large.
Those examples are frequently very bad. Look at the current crop of CEO's. Greed, disregard for others and arrogance have become the norm (see Ebbers, Lay et. al., I won't count Martha because I don't think she really did anything wrong). Crimes by sports figures are too numerous to mention (steroids, violence, etc.) Even presidents governors and senators have set very bad moral examples (choose who you want, there are horrendous examples on each side of the aisle).
Therefore, what is ethical behavior? If we allow some personal interpretation and use our most rewarded and celebrated citizens as examples, all the stuff originally cited as S2KI members behaving badly is at least consistent with that behavior. I hope this is not the case and that enough of us are wise enough to understand what's right and wrong. However, I can certainly understand why behavior that appears wrong to many is very much subject to personal interpretation and even justification by some.
Bottom line = Let he who is without sin...etc. etc. etc.
The whole concept of ethics is obfuscated by examples commonly seen in society. Monetary success is valued, rewarded and generally desired by all of society. Thereby, many (most?) successful people become role models whether they want to or not. The examples they set slowly become the standards for society at large.
Those examples are frequently very bad. Look at the current crop of CEO's. Greed, disregard for others and arrogance have become the norm (see Ebbers, Lay et. al., I won't count Martha because I don't think she really did anything wrong). Crimes by sports figures are too numerous to mention (steroids, violence, etc.) Even presidents governors and senators have set very bad moral examples (choose who you want, there are horrendous examples on each side of the aisle).
Therefore, what is ethical behavior? If we allow some personal interpretation and use our most rewarded and celebrated citizens as examples, all the stuff originally cited as S2KI members behaving badly is at least consistent with that behavior. I hope this is not the case and that enough of us are wise enough to understand what's right and wrong. However, I can certainly understand why behavior that appears wrong to many is very much subject to personal interpretation and even justification by some.
Bottom line = Let he who is without sin...etc. etc. etc.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,868
Likes: 1,058
Originally Posted by Kyras,May 5 2005, 11:38 AM
Pltththth.I have nothing to get over and I do enjoy life you big meanie head. It was just my opinion. Yours is rather stringent, as usual.
I knew from the first post of yours I ever read you know how to enjoy life.
I was referring to the thread originator.
I hope he escapes his morality dillema and goes out and enjoys life instead
Pffffffft yourself
Hope you're feeling better
fltsfshr
