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Old Aug 21, 2006 | 06:42 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by paS2K,Aug 21 2006, 09:34 PM
The Union chooses one bad leader after another. How could the troops not be demoralized?
That is the contrast. The Union with one bad leader after another and the Confederacy with Robert E. Lee who is "An honest man, a gentleman." What a contrast.
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Old Aug 21, 2006 | 06:53 PM
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"George Gordon Meade, Major General, forty-seven. Vain, and bad-tempered, balding, full of self pity. He takes command of the Army on a Sunday, June 28, two days before the Battle. He wishes to hold a grand Review, but there turns out not to be time. He plans a line of defense along Pipe Creek, far from Gettysburg, in the unreal hope that Lee will attack him on ground of his own choosing. No decision he makes at Gettysburg will be decisive, except perhaps the last."

Compare that to how Shaara talks about Lee.
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Old Aug 21, 2006 | 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ralper,Aug 21 2006, 10:42 PM
That is the contrast. The Union with one bad leader after another and the Confederacy with Robert E. Lee who is "An honest man, a gentleman." What a contrast.
And the description would appear to be accurate. By all independant accounts, the men loved Lee and would gladly die fighting for him.

Vito, I don't remember the source, but i recall that Lee and/or Davis said they would go with whichever side Virginia chose. The loyalty of men to a State is somewhat foreign to us now, isn't it?
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Old Aug 21, 2006 | 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Legal Bill,Aug 21 2006, 09:53 PM
Vito, I don't remember the source, but i recall that Lee and/or Davis said they would go with whichever side Virginia chose. The loyalty of men to a State is somewhat foreign to us now, isn't it?
Different times Bill, different times. Loyalty was to the state first, the union second.

I read somewhere that the flag barer carried the battle flag into combat knowing that he would probably die, yet regarded it as an honor. If the flag barer was killed another would assume the role, and not allow the flag to fall, again knowing that it was certain death. I can't imagine that today.
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Old Aug 21, 2006 | 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by ralper,Aug 21 2006, 10:53 PM
"George Gordon Meade, Major General, forty-seven. Vain, and bad-tempered, balding, full of self pity. He takes command of the Army on a Sunday, June 28, two days before the Battle. He wishes to hold a grand Review, but there turns out not to be time. He plans a line of defense along Pipe Creek, far from Gettysburg, in the unreal hope that Lee will attack him on ground of his own choosing. No decision he makes at Gettysburg will be decisive, except perhaps the last."

Compare that to how Shaara talks about Lee.
Yes, it is quite a contrast. But is it a demonstration of Shaara's sympathies, or just an accurate report of the men and circumstances? Compare the descriptions of Meade with the descriptions of Buford, Chamberlain and Reynolds. Shaara favors all three of these Union officers with admiring descriptions.
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Old Aug 21, 2006 | 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ralper,Aug 21 2006, 10:57 PM
Different times Bill, different times. Loyalty was to the state first, the union second.

I read somewhere that the flag barer carried the battle flag into combat knowing that he would probably die, yet regarded it as an honor. If the flag barer was killed another would assume the role, and not allow the flag to fall, again knowing that it was certain death. I can't imagine that today.
Agreed Rob. I don't know what the source of that loyalty is. The cynic would call it stupidity, but I do think something is lost in our "modern" times without which we cannot understand that kind of sacrafice.
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Old Aug 21, 2006 | 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Legal Bill,Aug 21 2006, 10:01 PM
Yes, it is quite a contrast. But is it a demonstration of Shaara's sympathies, or just an accurate report of the men and circumstances?
Both I think. I think it's clear that Shaara's admiration and respect is for the Southern officers, while at the same time he is trying to be fair.

Granted he speaks kindly of Buford, Chamberlain and Reynolds, but I think he sets the tone with Lee.

Of course, its not all black and white. As you noted, the characterizations were to a large part true. No question, Lee was loved by his men, not so the northern generals.

Back to your point about loyalty to the state. I had heard that Lee would have fought for either side Virginia went with. I never heard that about Jefferson Davis. I think Shaara drives that point home later in the book when he notes Lee thinking that now he is fighting against the country he was sworn to defend.

That is another point that we need think about as we go through the book. Both you and Vito touched on it. Brother fighting brother. Which uniform to put on? Attacking a country you've sworn to defend. George Pickett received his appointment to West Point through the offices of Abraham Lincoln. Civil War, a very strange set of circumstances, a very strange set of relationships.
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Old Aug 21, 2006 | 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Legal Bill,Aug 15 2006, 10:47 PM
When you read the foreword, consider-

a) How do the main characters see themselves?

b) How do they see the war and the coming battle?

c) How does Shaara set the mood of the battle through his description of the characters.

d) What personal qualities do these men value? How does that compare to modern warfare? Ancient warfare?
Here are my answers to homework assignment:
a) Lee: honest, focused, believes God is on his/south's side
Longstreet: believes in defensive warfare, sad/in mourning over loss of 3 children, forceful, speaks his mind
Pickett: vain glorious
Chamberlain: Studious, wants to be a good soldier/leader
Buford: Not a politician, a confident cavalry officer, good eye for "the ground"
Meade: New to command, so very cautious and defensive
Hancock: Confident with leadership abilities, likes to rally the troops

b) All want the coming battle to be the last. All are tired of the war and the killing.

c) The mood that is set is one of an inevitable confrontation between two massive armies fighting for different reasons. Individually, all can be seen as "good" men, so it is a tragic confrontation. And since the two armies want to destroy each other, many will die.

d) They value honor, courage and loyalty. The major difference lies in loyalty to state, or loyalty to union.
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Old Aug 21, 2006 | 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ralper,Aug 21 2006, 11:14 PM
George Pickett received his appointment to West Point through the offices of Abraham Lincoln. Civil War, a very strange set of circumstances, a very strange set of relationships.
All good points Rob, but this last is the best and most poignant (sp?) detail in the Foreword. No man can criticize Lincoln in Pickett's presence. Lincoln is the supreme enemy of the south, but Pickett, who fights agianst him, is loyal to him.

I can't imagine such a world. Lessons for us all in these Blue State-Red State times
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Old Aug 21, 2006 | 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Vitito,Aug 21 2006, 11:15 PM
Here are my answers to homework assignment:
a) Lee: honest, focused, believes God is on his/south's side
Longstreet: believes in defensive warfare, sad/in mourning over loss of 3 children, forceful, speaks his mind
Pickett: vain glorious
Chamberlain: Studious, wants to be a good soldier/leader
Buford: Not a politician, a confident cavalry officer, good eye for "the ground"
Meade: New to command, so very cautious and defensive
Hancock: Confident with leadership abilities, likes to rally the troops

b) All want the coming battle to be the last. All are tired of the war and the killing.

c) The mood that is set is one of an inevitable confrontation between two massive armies fighting for different reasons. Individually, all can be seen as "good" men, so it is a tragic confrontation. And since the two armies want to destroy each other, many will die.

d) They value honor, courage and loyalty. The major difference lies in loyalty to state, or loyalty to union.
Great summary Vito. Later in the reading I will want to discuss the reasoning of the Southern officers for seperation.
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