Talk over-moderated
Community Organizer
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 20,983
Likes: 188
From: in my garage
I have stayed out of this so that people can vent as they need and hopefully some meaningful information could come from the thread. If edits were to be made or the topic to be moved or closed, I felt it should be done by someone other than the person being most commonly referenced since everyone would naturally assume an edit or lock would be done by that person out of spite. Plus, in the last 48 hours, not to downplay the importance of the topic, but I have had some things to take care of which were a higher priority and I hadn't even been in the sub-forum since Saturday evening until this afternoon. At this point, I want to state that I appreciate some of the measured replies and reasonable commentary. Posts with serious intent to help and not just be a bashfest are always welcome and they make an impression.
I was asked to come in and help in a forum that was shorthanded and needed assistance in being moderated. I was given links to the TOS and forum guidelines. I read all of the moderators guidelines, dos and don'ts, and tried to absorb a LOT of information as quickly as I could so I could do what was asked of me. I watched what other moderators did, dove in, and proceeded to try to do what I felt was the best job I could do. There are a lot of threads which get started in S2000 Talk which really ought to be in other sub-forums better suited for those topics. I've already given examples of those types of topics in my previous post in this thread so I won't waste time repeating them. And when I say a lot, I do mean a LOT (and then there is the spam that some of you never even get to see which sometimes fills half a page). Some are from people who are new and are perhaps overwhelmed by all of the content here. Some are from people who honestly think they are in the right place. And some are from people who don't really care and just dump posts wherever their cursor lands. I think if you read the moved threads, on a huge majority you will see I took the extra time to post why a thread was being moved particularly when it is a first-time poster.
When it comes to opinions, my personal opinions are always only my own. However, I can see where people might not always recognize that because there is a moderator symbol next to my name now. I don't really think my posts have changed any from before I was asked to mod. I have good days and bad days just like anyone else. But the vast majority of the time, I do take the time to explain what I'm doing and why. I am not blindly following the rules, as some have suggested. I recognize there is a reason those rules exist, although I'm not privy to the entirety of some of those reasons. I can't just decide I personally disagree with the rules and not apply them if I feel like not applying them. That is not up to me. I can, however, make note of what I think seems odd, bring it to the attention of others who might know why they exist and ask for discussion. But I can't just stop applying the rule just because I decide I suddenly know better than the person (people) who set it forth. Whether I have posted in a thread or not, agreed with it or not, once the thread has gone into a territory where it is supposed to be moved or closed, I have done that. Not out of anger, but out of what was supposed to happen. My comments are last in the thread I close typically to state why it's being closed. It's rare I close a thread with no explanation.
I realize that some will take this as an opportunity to dissect my responses and find more fault with me somehow, even some who I have probably helped by posting detailed answers to questions they could have taken the exact same time that I did to do a google search and look up for themselves, but instead decided to let someone else do it for them. Such is the nature of some people. I am not really worried about that. I've done what I needed to do and I am okay with it. Can I do better? Sure. Can't we all? Do I -- or any other moderator -- deserve to be crucified by the village? No.
Again, I want to point out that the moderators all care -- we wouldn't be here or be doing this if we didn't -- and this thread is not being ignored or trying to be hidden by anyone. Quite the contrary, I assure you.
I was asked to come in and help in a forum that was shorthanded and needed assistance in being moderated. I was given links to the TOS and forum guidelines. I read all of the moderators guidelines, dos and don'ts, and tried to absorb a LOT of information as quickly as I could so I could do what was asked of me. I watched what other moderators did, dove in, and proceeded to try to do what I felt was the best job I could do. There are a lot of threads which get started in S2000 Talk which really ought to be in other sub-forums better suited for those topics. I've already given examples of those types of topics in my previous post in this thread so I won't waste time repeating them. And when I say a lot, I do mean a LOT (and then there is the spam that some of you never even get to see which sometimes fills half a page). Some are from people who are new and are perhaps overwhelmed by all of the content here. Some are from people who honestly think they are in the right place. And some are from people who don't really care and just dump posts wherever their cursor lands. I think if you read the moved threads, on a huge majority you will see I took the extra time to post why a thread was being moved particularly when it is a first-time poster.
When it comes to opinions, my personal opinions are always only my own. However, I can see where people might not always recognize that because there is a moderator symbol next to my name now. I don't really think my posts have changed any from before I was asked to mod. I have good days and bad days just like anyone else. But the vast majority of the time, I do take the time to explain what I'm doing and why. I am not blindly following the rules, as some have suggested. I recognize there is a reason those rules exist, although I'm not privy to the entirety of some of those reasons. I can't just decide I personally disagree with the rules and not apply them if I feel like not applying them. That is not up to me. I can, however, make note of what I think seems odd, bring it to the attention of others who might know why they exist and ask for discussion. But I can't just stop applying the rule just because I decide I suddenly know better than the person (people) who set it forth. Whether I have posted in a thread or not, agreed with it or not, once the thread has gone into a territory where it is supposed to be moved or closed, I have done that. Not out of anger, but out of what was supposed to happen. My comments are last in the thread I close typically to state why it's being closed. It's rare I close a thread with no explanation.
I realize that some will take this as an opportunity to dissect my responses and find more fault with me somehow, even some who I have probably helped by posting detailed answers to questions they could have taken the exact same time that I did to do a google search and look up for themselves, but instead decided to let someone else do it for them. Such is the nature of some people. I am not really worried about that. I've done what I needed to do and I am okay with it. Can I do better? Sure. Can't we all? Do I -- or any other moderator -- deserve to be crucified by the village? No.
Again, I want to point out that the moderators all care -- we wouldn't be here or be doing this if we didn't -- and this thread is not being ignored or trying to be hidden by anyone. Quite the contrary, I assure you.
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 8,655
Likes: 171
I thought it was just me and moved on. Come to find out many others are having this problem. So clearly the problem is more wide spread then one user, thread, day or PM.
Things need changing. I suspect it's a range of things, but a certain persons attitude is not in keeping with moderating or representing s2ki.
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 8,655
Likes: 171
I have stayed out of this so that people can vent as they need and hopefully some meaningful information could come from the thread. If edits were to be made or the topic to be moved or closed, I felt it should be done by someone other than the person being most commonly referenced since everyone would naturally assume an edit or lock would be done by that person out of spite. Plus, in the last 48 hours, not to downplay the importance of the topic, but I have had some things to take care of which were a higher priority and I hadn't even been in the sub-forum since Saturday evening until this afternoon. At this point, I want to state that I appreciate some of the measured replies and reasonable commentary. Posts with serious intent to help and not just be a bashfest are always welcome and they make an impression.
I was asked to come in and help in a forum that was shorthanded and needed assistance in being moderated. I was given links to the TOS and forum guidelines. I read all of the moderators guidelines, dos and don'ts, and tried to absorb a LOT of information as quickly as I could so I could do what was asked of me. I watched what other moderators did, dove in, and proceeded to try to do what I felt was the best job I could do. There are a lot of threads which get started in S2000 Talk which really ought to be in other sub-forums better suited for those topics. I've already given examples of those types of topics in my previous post in this thread so I won't waste time repeating them. And when I say a lot, I do mean a LOT (and then there is the spam that some of you never even get to see which sometimes fills half a page). Some are from people who are new and are perhaps overwhelmed by all of the content here. Some are from people who honestly think they are in the right place. And some are from people who don't really care and just dump posts wherever their cursor lands. I think if you read the moved threads, on a huge majority you will see I took the extra time to post why a thread was being moved particularly when it is a first-time poster.
When it comes to opinions, my personal opinions are always only my own. However, I can see where people might not always recognize that because there is a moderator symbol next to my name now. I don't really think my posts have changed any from before I was asked to mod. I have good days and bad days just like anyone else. But the vast majority of the time, I do take the time to explain what I'm doing and why. I am not blindly following the rules, as some have suggested. I recognize there is a reason those rules exist, although I'm not privy to the entirety of some of those reasons. I can't just decide I personally disagree with the rules and not apply them if I feel like not applying them. That is not up to me. I can, however, make note of what I think seems odd, bring it to the attention of others who might know why they exist and ask for discussion. But I can't just stop applying the rule just because I decide I suddenly know better than the person (people) who set it forth. Whether I have posted in a thread or not, agreed with it or not, once the thread has gone into a territory where it is supposed to be moved or closed, I have done that. Not out of anger, but out of what was supposed to happen. My comments are last in the thread I close typically to state why it's being closed. It's rare I close a thread with no explanation.
I realize that some will take this as an opportunity to dissect my responses and find more fault with me somehow, even some who I have probably helped by posting detailed answers to questions they could have taken the exact same time that I did to do a google search and look up for themselves, but instead decided to let someone else do it for them. Such is the nature of some people. I am not really worried about that. I've done what I needed to do and I am okay with it. Can I do better? Sure. Can't we all? Do I -- or any other moderator -- deserve to be crucified by the village? No.
Again, I want to point out that the moderators all care -- we wouldn't be here or be doing this if we didn't -- and this thread is not being ignored or trying to be hidden by anyone. Quite the contrary, I assure you.
I was asked to come in and help in a forum that was shorthanded and needed assistance in being moderated. I was given links to the TOS and forum guidelines. I read all of the moderators guidelines, dos and don'ts, and tried to absorb a LOT of information as quickly as I could so I could do what was asked of me. I watched what other moderators did, dove in, and proceeded to try to do what I felt was the best job I could do. There are a lot of threads which get started in S2000 Talk which really ought to be in other sub-forums better suited for those topics. I've already given examples of those types of topics in my previous post in this thread so I won't waste time repeating them. And when I say a lot, I do mean a LOT (and then there is the spam that some of you never even get to see which sometimes fills half a page). Some are from people who are new and are perhaps overwhelmed by all of the content here. Some are from people who honestly think they are in the right place. And some are from people who don't really care and just dump posts wherever their cursor lands. I think if you read the moved threads, on a huge majority you will see I took the extra time to post why a thread was being moved particularly when it is a first-time poster.
When it comes to opinions, my personal opinions are always only my own. However, I can see where people might not always recognize that because there is a moderator symbol next to my name now. I don't really think my posts have changed any from before I was asked to mod. I have good days and bad days just like anyone else. But the vast majority of the time, I do take the time to explain what I'm doing and why. I am not blindly following the rules, as some have suggested. I recognize there is a reason those rules exist, although I'm not privy to the entirety of some of those reasons. I can't just decide I personally disagree with the rules and not apply them if I feel like not applying them. That is not up to me. I can, however, make note of what I think seems odd, bring it to the attention of others who might know why they exist and ask for discussion. But I can't just stop applying the rule just because I decide I suddenly know better than the person (people) who set it forth. Whether I have posted in a thread or not, agreed with it or not, once the thread has gone into a territory where it is supposed to be moved or closed, I have done that. Not out of anger, but out of what was supposed to happen. My comments are last in the thread I close typically to state why it's being closed. It's rare I close a thread with no explanation.
I realize that some will take this as an opportunity to dissect my responses and find more fault with me somehow, even some who I have probably helped by posting detailed answers to questions they could have taken the exact same time that I did to do a google search and look up for themselves, but instead decided to let someone else do it for them. Such is the nature of some people. I am not really worried about that. I've done what I needed to do and I am okay with it. Can I do better? Sure. Can't we all? Do I -- or any other moderator -- deserve to be crucified by the village? No.
Again, I want to point out that the moderators all care -- we wouldn't be here or be doing this if we didn't -- and this thread is not being ignored or trying to be hidden by anyone. Quite the contrary, I assure you.
1. Harsh enforcement of TOS without concern for users
2. Failure to engage in constructive PM - the PM we had was bad, my reply should have been a wake up call. You didn't care at all. If you did, you would have wrote back.
3. Attitude problem - both in posts with users and your own information listed. " Computer Network Goddess -- Don't like the title? Sounds like that's *your* problem, not mine." Get over yourself and don't be petty. Picking fights with users is childish and disqualifies you for the job of a moderator.
4. Failure to address problems in advance
So this is either a failure of management to properly train you or a personal issue you have with the job at hand. In my proffesional experience I believe it's two fold:
1. TOS are rules that need sound reasoning to enforce - You enforce text book without much consideration for the user experience. Suggesting you're out of touch with the reasoning behind your job here and the ultimate direction of this website
2. Personal issues - Maybe life is too busy for you. Your attitude however is bad "Waste of bandwidth" should never come out of your mouth/be typed. Maybe you're not in a place to do this job or maybe you're not a good 'fit' for managing people. The fact you call yourself a goddess has psychological implications as well, which I'll spare less this gets too intense for online.
Needless to say if you act like this at your job, I'm not sure how you keep it. If you worked for me and treated anyone as you do online I'd have fired you. I think for you personally you need to lighten up your touch, give more thought to which parts of the TOS need to be so strongly enforced and think carefully about closing threads getting lots of replies. If you get some joy out of the 'power' of being a moderator, please resign. Your job might be thankless most of the time but every user here is going to be thankful for a fair, balanced and humble moderator. So far you're not those three things.
It should be clear to you by now a group of people don't like how you're moderating. This should be a sign itself. We're not 'venting' we're looking for change. In my humble opinion you won't be able to make the required adjustments. Your actions and attitude suggest some who is looking for a power outlet, has personal problems and enjoys being a moderator for their own personal reasons.
Anyone moderating here should be thinking about the user experience first and TOS second. Without users, you just have a bunch of mods.
Food for thought.
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 281,962
Likes: 442
From: Charleston, SC. \>
My gut feeling is that 90% of the crap in s2000 Talk would be fixed if people would just put in an extra 30 seconds of effort and do a search or create a new thread that links to an old thread and say hey I found this thread but it didnt answer my question and here is why. But people are lazy so they just do a search find a 10 yr old thread and say, "Hey my Turbo Enabulator doesnt work" When with just a few more seconds worth of work they could say. "Hey I found this thread from 19 ought and still had this question about my Retro Discombobulator". Not only satisfying the rules but at the same time making information easier to find and their question easier to answer.
I feel some of the other issues stem from the fact that it just takes off color/ off subject post to derail a thread and turn it into a crap storm. And I bet we could do a better job unapproving/editing these posts and giving warnings in the thread in order to keep topics open. BUT, once this happen it is up to all of you to understand that the topic is one stupid post form getting locked. If someone posts something that is trolling or just plain dumb ignore it, let us deal with it or report it to us. Responding and calling names or whatever is just going to make our job harder and the threads get closed.
I feel some of the other issues stem from the fact that it just takes off color/ off subject post to derail a thread and turn it into a crap storm. And I bet we could do a better job unapproving/editing these posts and giving warnings in the thread in order to keep topics open. BUT, once this happen it is up to all of you to understand that the topic is one stupid post form getting locked. If someone posts something that is trolling or just plain dumb ignore it, let us deal with it or report it to us. Responding and calling names or whatever is just going to make our job harder and the threads get closed.
Former Moderator
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 105,828
Likes: 152
Agree... sort of 
The forum users are not just customers, they are people. If the interaction between people becomes hostile, then someone needs to step in. The number of complaints we see being reported to us is staggering.... Do I think some people are over-sensitive? Yes, but as Moderators, we have to do our due diligence to respond if we feel that someone might view a comment as hostile. Moderators don't sit and seek out people to punish or threads to close all day. The Moderating Team are all volunteers. We are on the site because we love the forum.
Reading through the examples posted above, do I think we could handle things a bit differently. Absolutely.. It's feedback that we can take back and discuss with the Moderators. This applies to not just S2000 Talk but with the Moderators in our other forums as well.
Moderating is an ever-evolving process. The landscape has changed significantly since I joined s2ki over 10 years ago. If we as Moderators don't adjust to our people, we will be viewed as over-moderating (or not moderating enough). Like I said above, we can revisit how we Moderate different forums. We have a lot of tenure within the Moderating Team and bringing in new Moderators always brings us opportunities to visit how we handle the people that spend their time on s2ki. This is also why we review and rotate the team.
Long story short.... lots of good feedback, examples, and suggestions. As far as the personal attacks go, we will continue to Moderate those. I've been on both the receiving and giving side of this. (As some of the more tenured members will remember... there were a handful of us that managed to get under the skin of the Moderating Team and managed to shut down a whole regional forum once...
I also remember what it was like when I was given a "time-out" from the site 
)
Thanks everyone.
M
The forum users are not just customers, they are people. If the interaction between people becomes hostile, then someone needs to step in. The number of complaints we see being reported to us is staggering.... Do I think some people are over-sensitive? Yes, but as Moderators, we have to do our due diligence to respond if we feel that someone might view a comment as hostile. Moderators don't sit and seek out people to punish or threads to close all day. The Moderating Team are all volunteers. We are on the site because we love the forum.
Reading through the examples posted above, do I think we could handle things a bit differently. Absolutely.. It's feedback that we can take back and discuss with the Moderators. This applies to not just S2000 Talk but with the Moderators in our other forums as well.
Moderating is an ever-evolving process. The landscape has changed significantly since I joined s2ki over 10 years ago. If we as Moderators don't adjust to our people, we will be viewed as over-moderating (or not moderating enough). Like I said above, we can revisit how we Moderate different forums. We have a lot of tenure within the Moderating Team and bringing in new Moderators always brings us opportunities to visit how we handle the people that spend their time on s2ki. This is also why we review and rotate the team.
Long story short.... lots of good feedback, examples, and suggestions. As far as the personal attacks go, we will continue to Moderate those. I've been on both the receiving and giving side of this. (As some of the more tenured members will remember... there were a handful of us that managed to get under the skin of the Moderating Team and managed to shut down a whole regional forum once...
I also remember what it was like when I was given a "time-out" from the site )Thanks everyone.
M
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 281,962
Likes: 442
From: Charleston, SC. \>
Doesnt matter if most people are ok with it. Everyone has to be and it has to follow the rules.
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Just wanted to chime in as a newb and an avid member of a couple different forums.
I think one of the reasons why threads get started in the S2000 Talk section is because followers of that section respect the advice, opinions, and experience of the members who frequent that section. The section does have a pretty general description as "Discussions related to the S2000, its ownership and enthusiasm for it." So it would make sense that a thread gets started there, or an old thread gets bumped there by a new member who is looking for information that may found or belong in a different section. In which case, members who frequent that section would either post a link to the section or give the poster some feedback. It's not the end of the world. No one needs to be put down about using the search. Not everyone who does it is a troll.
Coffee induced blabbering done
I think one of the reasons why threads get started in the S2000 Talk section is because followers of that section respect the advice, opinions, and experience of the members who frequent that section. The section does have a pretty general description as "Discussions related to the S2000, its ownership and enthusiasm for it." So it would make sense that a thread gets started there, or an old thread gets bumped there by a new member who is looking for information that may found or belong in a different section. In which case, members who frequent that section would either post a link to the section or give the poster some feedback. It's not the end of the world. No one needs to be put down about using the search. Not everyone who does it is a troll.
Coffee induced blabbering done
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 8,655
Likes: 171
My gut feeling is that 90% of the crap in s2000 Talk would be fixed if people would just put in an extra 30 seconds of effort and do a search or create a new thread that links to an old thread and say hey I found this thread but it didnt answer my question and here is why. But people are lazy so they just do a search find a 10 yr old thread and say, "Hey my Turbo Enabulator doesnt work" When with just a few more seconds worth of work they could say. "Hey I found this thread from 19 ought and still had this question about my Retro Discombobulator". Not only satisfying the rules but at the same time making information easier to find and their question easier to answer.
I feel some of the other issues stem from the fact that it just takes off color/ off subject post to derail a thread and turn it into a crap storm. And I bet we could do a better job unapproving/editing these posts and giving warnings in the thread in order to keep topics open. BUT, once this happen it is up to all of you to understand that the topic is one stupid post form getting locked. If someone posts something that is trolling or just plain dumb ignore it, let us deal with it or report it to us. Responding and calling names or whatever is just going to make our job harder and the threads get closed.
I feel some of the other issues stem from the fact that it just takes off color/ off subject post to derail a thread and turn it into a crap storm. And I bet we could do a better job unapproving/editing these posts and giving warnings in the thread in order to keep topics open. BUT, once this happen it is up to all of you to understand that the topic is one stupid post form getting locked. If someone posts something that is trolling or just plain dumb ignore it, let us deal with it or report it to us. Responding and calling names or whatever is just going to make our job harder and the threads get closed.
For example, when a guy talks about his divorce and the car being what he leans on to get through tough times - on topic is car/divorce/marriage. In this case as long as things keep come back to the topic of cars and doesn't turn into say a 'marriage bashing session' we're good to have a healthy and fun discussion.
In the thread that was closed, you'll notice I brought it around and clarified I wasn't looking to bash anything. Thread still got closed. This is an example of an area I think needs improvement.
Conversations in real life flow and are not always 'on topic' and the online forum versions need to be allowed the same 'give' to keep things lively.
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 4,252
Likes: 3
From: SOMD
It seems strange that a thread is closed for straying "off-topic" when the OP itself has multiple points made that all fall under different topics. TBH the flow of a conversation is a good thing. It is human. We relate one thing to another from personal experience, not to troll or stifle intelligent "on-topic" conversation. It is human to want to relate.
We could all just start threads with only one topic. All responses will have to be agreements/disagreements to said topic, with maybe one or two opinions on said topic.
Better still, we could all have planned and approved responses for everything instead...
Rant over.
I appreciate the moderating that does happen. I spend a lot of time on this forum; it is more enjoyable when it is free of spam, scammers and trolls. I am happy to pay the membership fee, as the amount of knowledge I have already gained just from this forum is invaluable to me. Hopefully we can come to some form of a resolution.