Sondra S2K

In a conversation with an Atlantan friend today, I mentioned my annoyance with S2Ki's downtime in the 24 hours prior to a happy hour meeting today; and the folks who put together the S2000atlanta.com site have offered to do the same for us. Their forums are better organized and have NEVER experienced any downtime.

The only thing we would need to do is chip in for our own domain name, which would be a minimal amount, perhaps $20 per year? I'm seeking opinions on this, since it was offered to us, so chime in and let me know what you think! It seems like a no-brainer, especially since it won't cost us anything more than the fee to keep a domain name, but it's ultimately up to you guys. Feel free to visit www.s2000atlanta.com for an idea of what sorts of things are being offered to us, and then post here!

jwfisher

This is a very good idea, it's something we really need. That's why you are our leader!

I have a couple of questions before starting to build this new site (even though we'd still have the old site):

- Is this a site for "Central Texas S2000s" only, or the broader "Central Texas Sports Car Club" concept we'd kicked around? We've got a couple of close folks in other types of cars we need to do something to hold onto...
- members-only, open, or a combination of both?
- Is this a bulletin board only, or do we have some space for other creative purposes?
- How much authoring control do we have over this site?
- Who would the webmaster be?
- who would the moderator be?
- what about some level of sys admin authority... we'd need it to setup the bulletin board. Or, we'd need to have a couple of things done for us (directory permissions, et al).
- we'd own the domain name?
- how would we pay for incidental expenses, such as the renewal of the domain name?
- do we get a licensed copy of the bulletin board software, or the freeware version (there are major functionality & support differences).
- are we getting email accounts as well? Is any kind of list capability possible (not that I'd recommend a list, but email messages as "event broadcasts" could be useful - especially since they could go to PDAs and cellphones for people already on-route)
- is there an SLA for the server(s)? Are they backed up, what is the availability plan, maint windows, etc?
- how much server capacity do we get - CPU, disk, download bandwidth, etc?
- will the servers have port security, virus control, user security, etc?
- what software would be available? A *real* database engine (hopefully not freeware)? Authoring software such as FrontPage? How are we licensed for this stuff?
- what is the h/w and o/s involved? Do we have the skillsets to manage them?

I saw a bulletin board system for one group recently where they a single open forum for anybody - registered or not. The rest were all closed to members only.

Perhaps we could have something like this... 2 open forums to registered parties (1. general postings; 2. events); and then a series of closed forums that are only accessible to *members*

A partial list of the advantages to this plan:

• Have a means to charge members $$ if it becomes necessary.
  
• Keep the junk that irritates everybody out of our own "private" (closed) forums.
  
• Open forum "events" would be events that we wish known. There would be a closed forum "events" as well, for road trips and other similar events which we want limited to an established group.
  
• By making registration a requirement to post for the open forums, posters become identifiable (TCP address, etc) and can be excluded by the moderator if needbe.

infinitebass

I hate the concept of "Members Only". It makes the board seem like they think they're more "elite" than everyone else, particularly when there would be a lot of non-members who might visit and give positive contributions to the board. Are we supposed to set up memberships for all the North Texas guys, who should all be allowed to see what we're up too, since they might want to come hang out with us sometime.

Or the Houstooks.

- Is this a bulletin board only, or do we have some space for other creative purposes?

If not, several of us I'm sure have webspace we could donate.

- How much authoring control do we have over this site?

What do you mean by authoring?

- Who would the webmaster be?

If we are using the same server the Atlanta group is using, as Sondra seems to say, probably whoever their webmaster is, since anything dealing with the server would probably be handled by them anyways.

If you are referring to the person you'd be sending suggestions about the webpage or actual board problems, that could be handled by any number of us, since a few of us have experience with PHP and web design.

- who would the moderator be?

Well, we know who your vote would be for.

- what about some level of sys admin authority... we'd need it to setup the bulletin board. Or, we'd need to have a couple of things done for us (directory permissions, et al).

I'm pretty sure that can be sorted out quickly without much discussion. Of course, this is now the most expensive endeavor ever...You can get a domain name and unlimited webhosting for about $10 a month. If we end up being interested in getting out own webhosting provider, the one I am using is quite amazing. (Unlimited space, unlimited bandwidth, PHP, Perl, C++ access, unlimited e-mails, etc. I'd have to discuss running a webboard from their server, but it probably wouldn't be a problem. All this for $10 a month.)

- we'd own the domain name?

If we pay for it, we own it.

- how would we pay for incidental expenses, such as the renewal of the domain name?

All $10 a year for renewal? I'm willing to bet we'd have at least one member willing to shell out $10 for the renewal fee.

- do we get a licensed copy of the bulletin board software, or the freeware version (there are major functionality & support differences).

Support should not be a problem, and functionality is not necessarily an issue. If you know where to look, there is generally free version of software with similar, if not BETTER functionality than commercial versions. (See OpenOffice for a good example, even though its in its infancy.) Plus functionality can easily be coded into it.

- are we getting email accounts as well? Is any kind of list capability possible (not that I'd recommend a list, but email messages as "event broadcasts" could be useful - especially since they could go to PDAs and cellphones for people already on-route)

To make them go to PDA's and cellphones is quite tricky. Honestly, I don't think that'd be worth the effort of making possible. E-mails and e-mail lists though, are generally not a problem with most webhosting providers. The provider I'm using gives unlimited e-mail addresses and mailing lists. I'd hope s2000atlanta's does too.

- is there an SLA for the server(s)? Are they backed up, what is the availability plan, maint windows, etc?

Usually not a problem. Good providers RARELY go down due to their own fault. If anything its with their upstream provider or the software itself. I'm pretty sure www.s2ki.com is at fault for their outages, not their webhosting provider. I've enver heard of a webserver that is not backed up. Plus, SLA's in webhosting are pretty useless. Most guarantee 99% uptime. That means they can be down for 87 hours a year or 7 hours a month. That's a hard number to reach if well run, as most are.

- how much server capacity do we get - CPU, disk, download bandwidth, etc?

I don't know about the S2000atlanta groups server.

- will the servers have port security, virus control, user security, etc?

You only need to worry about this if you are setting up your own server at a co-location facility. If you want to do this, be ready to break out the cash. Not that its worth it.

- what software would be available? A *real* database engine (hopefully not freeware)? Authoring software such as FrontPage? How are we licensed for this stuff?

Frontpage? Anyone who uses FrontPage for a webboard should be shot. FrontPage, even for regular webdesign is not the most advanced, or best way, much less for something like a webboard. And you have to find a server with FrontPage extensions if you really want to take full advantage of it.

MySQL is a *real* database engine, and one of the most powerful. Not to mention freeware. In fact, most major corporations are at least switching to SQL. (http://www.mysql.com/) My provider in particular provides MySQL with a PHP frontend. Don't really need much more than that. In fact, for a database as simple as ours would have to be, it would not be too challenging to programming our own. There is no need for an extensive database. I think if my previous employer, who had a main database with over a million entries, plus MANY smaller offshoots of 3-60k records was switching to SQL, it can handle our needs ok.

- what is the h/w and o/s involved? Do we have the skillsets to manage them?

Without a doubt.

[QUOTE}I saw a bulletin board system for one group recently where they a single open forum for anybody - registered or not. The rest were all closed to members only.

Perhaps we could have something like this... 2 open forums to registered parties (1. general postings; 2. events); and then a series of closed forums that are only accessible to *members*

A partial list of the advantages to this plan:

• Have a means to charge members $$ if it becomes necessary.
  
  
• Keep the junk that irritates everybody out of our own "private" (closed) forums.
  
  
• Open forum "events" would be events that we wish known. There would be a closed forum "events" as well, for road trips and other similar events which we want limited to an established group.
  
  
• By making registration a requirement to post for the open forums, posters become identifiable (TCP address, etc) and can be excluded by the moderator if needbe.

[/B][/QUOTE]

After seeing how upset everyone is with S2ki charging, I really think that would be a bad idea. What would we need closed forums for? How often do we have an excessive number of people coming to our drives anyways? Are we worried about a bunch of cars actually showing up? Don't think so. In fact, last I checked, we were trying to get MORE people coming.

Registration can be spoofed easily, and not many people have static IP addresses you can use to identify them with.

Blake

jwfisher

I know the answers to the technical questions, but am playing devil's advocate here. This is a big peice of work if we take it to the ultimate max. I'm sure we can build a better website than anybody else in the country; just building a bulletin board is easy and not particularly creative.

"Member" issue has been discussed before. I am simply laying it out on paper.

If the whole thing is nothing more than a copy of the Atlanta board, then we don't need to do anything but moderate it. But if it's to be a real website, then it's a lot more work. Yes, many people here - myself included - have extensive website experience and can easily handle this technically, given the right authorities on the server(s).

I'm using both a cellphone and PDA, both with text messaging and email capability. I'd like to see something available here, and sending text to either is a nit. Programming a site for the unique screen size of the receiver isn't much work either, although that's more than I had in mind.

And, "mysql" is not a real relational database product. It's simply freeware. You can only go so far w/ junior toys like that...

infinitebass

Yes, it is a big piece of work. Do we have to take it to the max? Why do we need a better website than anybody in the country? Who are we trying to impress? The whole reason this was brought up was stability, not creativity.

We don't have to go to the max at first. We should start with simply a bulletin board. Like you said, easy. We don't need an S2ki sized portal now. We can set up the added functionality over time. We can spread the workload out. There's no rush to have advanced picture gallery features, etc. immediately. All we need now is a place we can check info on and not worry about it going down right before an event.

If its a whole website, there's no reason to not go with our own provider. Its not very expensive, and if you go with your own provider, you are hopefully choosing one that gives you everything you need.

There's a difference between programming websites for a phone or PDA and sending messages to either. You first have to make sure their capable, and then you have to send it through the actual provider (for phones, at least), and that varies from provider to provider.

Building a website for the wireless web seems strikingly easy, but I haven't researched the actual protocol, so I don't know what it would take. You were mentioning sending messages, not an actual wireless capable webpage.

What would you like to use for a database engine? Oracle? IBM's software? What would we need anything more than MySQL for? Looking at the MySQL site, I think if its sufficient enough for the Census Bureau to use over Oracle's RDBMS, it is plenty for us. It wouldn't be too hard to write our own database that would be sufficient for a small site. (Albeit, why write something that has already been written, right?)

I understand what you are doing, but why make it more complicated than we must? I'm sure we could have a bare-bones board in place within a week, and most of the questions you asked really aren't even necessary.

Blake

Chris S

I like the idea of a separate web forum, but I'll leave the debate over tech. details to those of you w/ more relevant knowledge.

I'd actually like to see a more closed forum...maybe w/ an open area, but most of it closed. We'll still be able to post open events on S2ki if necessary.

I belong to a couple of closed (no access whatsoever to non-members) and semi-closed (read-only access to non-members), and they have some real advantages. No trolls, no flame wars, and you build a better sense of community by getting to know your fellow members better. Sure, it'll never get as big that way, but I'll take quality over quantity anyday. These only have a nominal fee of $10-20/yr., but it's sufficient to keep out the undesirables.

My $.02...

jwfisher

Exactly, that's why we need some closed and semi-closed forums.

Schatten

Honestly people, I think you look too deep into this. Why would you need anything more than MySQL for this? Lets see, there are a few "common" BB softwares out there: phpbulletin, uBB and vBulletin. vBulletin is the only one that doesn't run on MySQL, it is a flat file DB which really isn't a DB.

Whatever you consider a "real" relational database is, is irregardless of what needs to be accomplished here. Its all about what you need to accomplish a goal. Do YOU want to shell out licensing fees for Oracle 8i and a dedicated box on a line? I don't think so. In this context its utterly useless and overboard.

So.. drop the technicalities of implimentation and go with the idea if you want it to happen. Actually I believe there is a s2000central or something like that in which amartin registered some time ago and isn't really using it for anything. THAT could be a start. CenTexS2000 or something like that can be implimented. Stick with the implimentation and technical details for later if you want this to happen. Or else... we'll end up sticking with S2ki as a non-membership required site to visit and express views.

/my two cents.

SilverStreak

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Schatten
[B]Honestly people, I think you look too deep into this.

Skorpion

Sorry, but real men use vi