FIA Decision
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From: Monterey, CA
Originally Posted by matrix,Jul 27 2007, 11:39 AM
what bsand the fia continues to consistently be inconsistent.
do you think ron threatened to pull out if mclaren did get punished? there had to be some deal made. as others have posted referring to the increased revenues due to hamilton leading in drivers points, f1 could not survive the departure at mid-season of the leading team and drivers. is luca as brash as the commadore himself, no theres a deal done to appease everyone, ferrari will rightfully make plenty of noise but will continue to race. only teams of honda's status get punished for not befitting from breaking an fia rule. how does rule #151c read, a team can only be punished if found to have improved proformance from the theft and use of a competing teams parts and only if said parts are found on the accused teams car? rule #151d if cheating team is a top tier team leading in the points then only penance for their sins is required, all others will be severely punished.
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From: Toronto
Todt reflects on WMSC decision
Racing series F1
Date 2007-07-27
Twenty four hours on from the World Council's surprising decision which provoked so much discussion, as can be seen simply from looking at those sent to (Ferrari's) Internet site, Ferrari CEO Jean Todt chose to reflect in the cold light of day on everything that has taken place. "I am bitter about it: what happened yesterday is serious. On the one hand a verdict of guilt was handed down and on the other, no sanctions were imposed. I cannot understand it," reaffirmed Todt.
"During yesterday's meeting, the McLaren bosses, with no exceptions, admitted that their chief designer had obtained since back in March, prior to the Australian GP, documents from Nigel Stepney. Some of this data was used to prepare a clarification request submitted to the FIA, aimed clearly at us, given that throughout the Melbourne weekend, McLaren team principal and his closest colleagues made statements in which they threw doubt over "some cars." Therefore, such information was in fact used to obtain an advantage over us: not through an improvement in their performance, but instead through limiting ours."
"It is important to underline that the information used to try and damage Ferrari through the FIA might be only a part of the information received by McLaren. In an attempt to justify its actions, McLaren has tried to claim the immunity normally accorded to a whistleblower in some legal systems. But it should be noted that usually, an informant or whistleblower goes to the competent authority to denounce something, whereas in this case he went to Ferrari's main rival who, and it is not us who say this but the FIA, took great care not to mention that the information was obtained in this way."
"Let us move on. McLaren has confirmed that it has had to install a firewall to prevent further information from Stepney from reaching the team in the form of documents. Furthermore, Coughlan has been asked to tell the very same Stepney to stop sending him information. It is a shame that before this, Coughlan asked him for information on our brake balance system, then went to lunch with him in Spain, before calmly returning home with 780 pages of designs, diagrams, data and a whole lot more - as stated by the FIA release - with which to design, develop run and race a 2007 Ferrari Formula 1 car. As confirmed in that decision yesterday, the violation was already there in the simple possession of the information, which in itself constitutes an enormous advantage in a sport like Formula 1. In Ferrari's opinion, it is like playing a hand of poker with a rival who already knows what cards you are holding."
"It remains incomprehensible that apart from possession, one must also demonstrate the effective and visible use of this information on the McLaren car. Actually, this very same fact, on the basis of available information which the FIA used to find McLaren guilty, shows that the offence lies in the possession without the need to prove anything else. The proof is there and this led to the FIA's decision. Therefore I find it difficult to understand how the verdict makes sense. Furthermore, I have to say that the proof of effective use requested by the FIA is impossible for Ferrari to furnish, because of course, Ferrari does not have access to the McLaren car."
Todt further added this piece of behind the scenes background: "A few weeks after the race in Melbourne, the McLaren team principal proposed that we should reach a sort of agreement to establish a better relationship between our two teams, thus avoiding any future denunciations to the sporting authority. I replied that I found it impossible to believe him, because on several occasions we had seen that certain commitments had always been disregarded by McLaren. There was an exchange of views and, believing in their good faith, I agreed to sign this agreement on 9 June last."
"Since that time and even earlier, McLaren was perfectly aware, not only of the e-mails sent by their informer within our company, but also of the fact that their chief designer had stayed in contact with him and had received and continued to be in possession of a significant amount of technical information that belonged to us. So, on the one hand, they had come to say "let us trust one another," and on the other they were hiding serious facts such as those just stated above, but making no effort to inform us as would have been in the spirit and to the letter of our agreement."
"Finally, it should be noted that yesterday's meeting was not an appearance before a tribunal, but a meeting of the FIA World Council, at which only McLaren was asked to respond to accusations and in which we were present only as observers. Therefore there was no possibility to play an active role as we would have wished. I was only able to ask a few questions and reply to some, but we were not able to present our case nor the documents to support it."
"This decision remains very disappointing and surprising. It is not acceptable to create a precedent in such an important case in which the guilty verdict for serious and persistent violation of the fundamental principle of sporting honesty does not automatically incur a penalty. For our part, we will press on with the legal actions currently taking place in Italy and in England and we do not rule out taking further action."
@ the FIA....
Racing series F1
Date 2007-07-27
Twenty four hours on from the World Council's surprising decision which provoked so much discussion, as can be seen simply from looking at those sent to (Ferrari's) Internet site, Ferrari CEO Jean Todt chose to reflect in the cold light of day on everything that has taken place. "I am bitter about it: what happened yesterday is serious. On the one hand a verdict of guilt was handed down and on the other, no sanctions were imposed. I cannot understand it," reaffirmed Todt.
"During yesterday's meeting, the McLaren bosses, with no exceptions, admitted that their chief designer had obtained since back in March, prior to the Australian GP, documents from Nigel Stepney. Some of this data was used to prepare a clarification request submitted to the FIA, aimed clearly at us, given that throughout the Melbourne weekend, McLaren team principal and his closest colleagues made statements in which they threw doubt over "some cars." Therefore, such information was in fact used to obtain an advantage over us: not through an improvement in their performance, but instead through limiting ours."
"It is important to underline that the information used to try and damage Ferrari through the FIA might be only a part of the information received by McLaren. In an attempt to justify its actions, McLaren has tried to claim the immunity normally accorded to a whistleblower in some legal systems. But it should be noted that usually, an informant or whistleblower goes to the competent authority to denounce something, whereas in this case he went to Ferrari's main rival who, and it is not us who say this but the FIA, took great care not to mention that the information was obtained in this way."
"Let us move on. McLaren has confirmed that it has had to install a firewall to prevent further information from Stepney from reaching the team in the form of documents. Furthermore, Coughlan has been asked to tell the very same Stepney to stop sending him information. It is a shame that before this, Coughlan asked him for information on our brake balance system, then went to lunch with him in Spain, before calmly returning home with 780 pages of designs, diagrams, data and a whole lot more - as stated by the FIA release - with which to design, develop run and race a 2007 Ferrari Formula 1 car. As confirmed in that decision yesterday, the violation was already there in the simple possession of the information, which in itself constitutes an enormous advantage in a sport like Formula 1. In Ferrari's opinion, it is like playing a hand of poker with a rival who already knows what cards you are holding."
"It remains incomprehensible that apart from possession, one must also demonstrate the effective and visible use of this information on the McLaren car. Actually, this very same fact, on the basis of available information which the FIA used to find McLaren guilty, shows that the offence lies in the possession without the need to prove anything else. The proof is there and this led to the FIA's decision. Therefore I find it difficult to understand how the verdict makes sense. Furthermore, I have to say that the proof of effective use requested by the FIA is impossible for Ferrari to furnish, because of course, Ferrari does not have access to the McLaren car."
Todt further added this piece of behind the scenes background: "A few weeks after the race in Melbourne, the McLaren team principal proposed that we should reach a sort of agreement to establish a better relationship between our two teams, thus avoiding any future denunciations to the sporting authority. I replied that I found it impossible to believe him, because on several occasions we had seen that certain commitments had always been disregarded by McLaren. There was an exchange of views and, believing in their good faith, I agreed to sign this agreement on 9 June last."
"Since that time and even earlier, McLaren was perfectly aware, not only of the e-mails sent by their informer within our company, but also of the fact that their chief designer had stayed in contact with him and had received and continued to be in possession of a significant amount of technical information that belonged to us. So, on the one hand, they had come to say "let us trust one another," and on the other they were hiding serious facts such as those just stated above, but making no effort to inform us as would have been in the spirit and to the letter of our agreement."
"Finally, it should be noted that yesterday's meeting was not an appearance before a tribunal, but a meeting of the FIA World Council, at which only McLaren was asked to respond to accusations and in which we were present only as observers. Therefore there was no possibility to play an active role as we would have wished. I was only able to ask a few questions and reply to some, but we were not able to present our case nor the documents to support it."
"This decision remains very disappointing and surprising. It is not acceptable to create a precedent in such an important case in which the guilty verdict for serious and persistent violation of the fundamental principle of sporting honesty does not automatically incur a penalty. For our part, we will press on with the legal actions currently taking place in Italy and in England and we do not rule out taking further action."
@ the FIA....
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From: Mish-she-gan
Originally Posted by matrix,Jul 28 2007, 08:25 AM
In Ferrari's opinion, it is like playing a hand of poker with a rival who already knows what cards you are holding."
That statement sums it up. The FIA should 
and be ashamed.
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From: Toronto
^ - the FIA should be ashamed at trying to pull the wool over our eyes and sweep this under the rug. To say that there is no evidence of McLaren benefitting when McLaren admits using the stolen Ferrari info to construct their "clarification" of the flexi-floor is absolutely disgusting. The proof is right there...
The only way this situation would even be remotely fair is if every team was able to scrutinize every other team's design, test, schematics, etc...
That is obviously not happening so McLaren did benefit because they were the only team able to (and have admitted to it) to scrutinize the Ferrari info....
McLaren an honest team, with the highest integrity...ya right
- the FIA should be ashamed at trying to pull the wool over our eyes and sweep this under the rug. To say that there is no evidence of McLaren benefitting when McLaren admits using the stolen Ferrari info to construct their "clarification" of the flexi-floor is absolutely disgusting. The proof is right there...The only way this situation would even be remotely fair is if every team was able to scrutinize every other team's design, test, schematics, etc...
That is obviously not happening so McLaren did benefit because they were the only team able to (and have admitted to it) to scrutinize the Ferrari info....
McLaren an honest team, with the highest integrity...ya right
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From: West Henrietta UPSTATE NY
John Watson is a wise man...
I hope this whole situation does indeed leave McLaren tainted, and I hope like hell something happens and FA and/or LM do leave McLaren at the end of '07, leaving the team screwed.
'It Was Ferrari's Bible'
Posted by: MSulka on Jul 30, 2007 - 06:40 AM
Former McLaren racer John Watson has characterised the remainder of the 2007 season as a lose-lose situation for the Woking based team.
The 61-year-old Ulsterman, who won five grands prix before retiring in 1985, said that even if Lewis Hamilton or Fernando Alonso emerge from the espionage scandal with the championship, "it will forever be tainted".
"There will always be that stain, that reservation with people asking if the information was used and how long the team had it," Watson told the Sun after McLaren last Friday were found guilty but not penalised by the World Council.
Watson indicated that even he has reservations about his former team, for whom he spent five seasons starting in 1979, and finishing the 1982 drivers' standings in third.
Referring to the spying scandal involving suspended chief designer Mike Coughlan, he said: "McLaren did not just have details about the car but also about how the team operates.
"It was Ferrari's Bible."
Watson also accused the FIA of stirring more negative publicity by handing down such a controversial finding, with even usual Ferrari nemesis Flavio Briatore agreeing that McLaren should have paid "the consequences" having been found guilty.
The verdict has also opened the very real prospect of a Ferrari appeal.
Watson said of F1's governing body: "They haven't helped anybody. The FIA have done more to bring the sport into disrepute by not ending this."
www.paddocktalk.com
Posted by: MSulka on Jul 30, 2007 - 06:40 AM
Former McLaren racer John Watson has characterised the remainder of the 2007 season as a lose-lose situation for the Woking based team.
The 61-year-old Ulsterman, who won five grands prix before retiring in 1985, said that even if Lewis Hamilton or Fernando Alonso emerge from the espionage scandal with the championship, "it will forever be tainted".
"There will always be that stain, that reservation with people asking if the information was used and how long the team had it," Watson told the Sun after McLaren last Friday were found guilty but not penalised by the World Council.
Watson indicated that even he has reservations about his former team, for whom he spent five seasons starting in 1979, and finishing the 1982 drivers' standings in third.
Referring to the spying scandal involving suspended chief designer Mike Coughlan, he said: "McLaren did not just have details about the car but also about how the team operates.
"It was Ferrari's Bible."
Watson also accused the FIA of stirring more negative publicity by handing down such a controversial finding, with even usual Ferrari nemesis Flavio Briatore agreeing that McLaren should have paid "the consequences" having been found guilty.
The verdict has also opened the very real prospect of a Ferrari appeal.
Watson said of F1's governing body: "They haven't helped anybody. The FIA have done more to bring the sport into disrepute by not ending this."
www.paddocktalk.com
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From: West Henrietta UPSTATE NY
Clean as clean, what f'ing horse sshit...
Go for the appeal Ferrari, go for the appeal!!!
[QUOTE] Don't appeal, Bernie tells Ferrari
Bernie Ecclestone has urged Ferrari to pass up the temptation to appeal the FIA's decision last Thursday to not penalise McLaren for espionage.
The reaction from within Maranello and the Italian press has been universal in condemnation, and even Italian World Motor Sport Council member Luigi Macaluso broke ranks and FIA protocol last week and revealed that he thought guilty McLaren should have received a ban for possessing confidential Ferrari material.
"Juventus were sent down to Serie B for a lot less," he said last week.
The World Council's verdict was, however, apparently unanimous, and F1 chief executive Ecclestone says that should be the end of it.
And, having previously described the spying affair as "nonsense", he told the British newspaper News of the World: "If Ferrari think the wrong decision has been made they have every right to appeal and I think they will.
"But I don't think it will make any difference to the championship positions in the end."
Mercedes-Benz competition chief Norbert Haug also seemed unfazed by the prospect of his team facing another court test.
"Any appeal would have exactly the same result," he told German media.
Go for the appeal Ferrari, go for the appeal!!!
[QUOTE] Don't appeal, Bernie tells Ferrari
Bernie Ecclestone has urged Ferrari to pass up the temptation to appeal the FIA's decision last Thursday to not penalise McLaren for espionage.
The reaction from within Maranello and the Italian press has been universal in condemnation, and even Italian World Motor Sport Council member Luigi Macaluso broke ranks and FIA protocol last week and revealed that he thought guilty McLaren should have received a ban for possessing confidential Ferrari material.
"Juventus were sent down to Serie B for a lot less," he said last week.
The World Council's verdict was, however, apparently unanimous, and F1 chief executive Ecclestone says that should be the end of it.
And, having previously described the spying affair as "nonsense", he told the British newspaper News of the World: "If Ferrari think the wrong decision has been made they have every right to appeal and I think they will.
"But I don't think it will make any difference to the championship positions in the end."
Mercedes-Benz competition chief Norbert Haug also seemed unfazed by the prospect of his team facing another court test.
"Any appeal would have exactly the same result," he told German media.
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From: West Henrietta UPSTATE NY
And now this just in...
Furious Ferrari set to sue?
Options available to the Ferrari team
30/07/07 16:50
Ferrari chiefs plan to escalate the espionage scandal even further by commencing legal action against McLaren, according to latest reports from Italy.
Following the World Motor Sport Council's controversial acquittal of Woking based McLaren last Thursday, a spokesman for Ferrari on Monday confirmed that FIA rules do not allow an appeal to be sought.
The spokesman told the BBC, however, that the Maranello based team - angry that its title rival was not penalised for possessing secret Ferrari information - was 'evaluating all possible options' in the wake of the Paris hearing.
La Gazzetta dello Sport is now reporting that Ferrari plan to submit a request for prosecution with the legal authorities in Modena.
The Italian sports daily said the six-page complaint would be lodged on Tuesday morning.
Ferrari is already pursuing legal action in Italy against sacked employee Nigel Stepney, and in England against suspended McLaren chief designer Mike Coughlan for receiving the 780 pages of Ferrari secrets.
Ferrari would not confirm the news.
Source GMM, CAPSIS International
www.f1-live.com
Options available to the Ferrari team
30/07/07 16:50
Ferrari chiefs plan to escalate the espionage scandal even further by commencing legal action against McLaren, according to latest reports from Italy.
Following the World Motor Sport Council's controversial acquittal of Woking based McLaren last Thursday, a spokesman for Ferrari on Monday confirmed that FIA rules do not allow an appeal to be sought.
The spokesman told the BBC, however, that the Maranello based team - angry that its title rival was not penalised for possessing secret Ferrari information - was 'evaluating all possible options' in the wake of the Paris hearing.
La Gazzetta dello Sport is now reporting that Ferrari plan to submit a request for prosecution with the legal authorities in Modena.
The Italian sports daily said the six-page complaint would be lodged on Tuesday morning.
Ferrari is already pursuing legal action in Italy against sacked employee Nigel Stepney, and in England against suspended McLaren chief designer Mike Coughlan for receiving the 780 pages of Ferrari secrets.
Ferrari would not confirm the news.
Source GMM, CAPSIS International
www.f1-live.com