The King is Dead
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From: Tampa, FL
Originally Posted by Slamnasty,Apr 24 2007, 02:36 PM
You may not want to get into the union thing, but your statement ignores a lot of history. The auto worker unions of today may be asking too much for what they give, but their historical significance for the middle class is beyond question. Heck, even children unionized when child labor was still legal. Unions have served very good purposes historically. The UAW of today is a symbol of a group that lost its way some time ago.
As for other causes of GM's problems - beyond the UAW - it was the "full line of cars" ethos that they latched onto for each brand in the 70s, thus producing innumerable copies of other divisions' cars, much of which still exists today, though less directly. At least now they're diversifying some options to specific brands and trying new engine designs. But the product lineup is still an issue, and was the core problem in the 70, 80s and 90s.
As always, as the saying sort of goes, it's the content stupid. If the content sucks, so will sales. GM has finally realized this.
As for Toyota, the signs they are too big are already surfacing, #1 placement or not. There's a story on Leftlane right now about their managerial brain drain, overworked staff, and project managment issues. They realize they have issues, and seem to have a plan to change. But they're already feeling the pains of being #1, and it's only been a day. I don't know about anyone else, but I'd rather be a make like Ferrari than the top rank in my industry for sales. I'd rather be wanted than in everybody's garage. But I can't say GM's #1 standing wasn't some source of national pride...for a while anyways.
As for other causes of GM's problems - beyond the UAW - it was the "full line of cars" ethos that they latched onto for each brand in the 70s, thus producing innumerable copies of other divisions' cars, much of which still exists today, though less directly. At least now they're diversifying some options to specific brands and trying new engine designs. But the product lineup is still an issue, and was the core problem in the 70, 80s and 90s.
As always, as the saying sort of goes, it's the content stupid. If the content sucks, so will sales. GM has finally realized this.
As for Toyota, the signs they are too big are already surfacing, #1 placement or not. There's a story on Leftlane right now about their managerial brain drain, overworked staff, and project managment issues. They realize they have issues, and seem to have a plan to change. But they're already feeling the pains of being #1, and it's only been a day. I don't know about anyone else, but I'd rather be a make like Ferrari than the top rank in my industry for sales. I'd rather be wanted than in everybody's garage. But I can't say GM's #1 standing wasn't some source of national pride...for a while anyways.
i know (most of) the history of unions.. but they have no place in today's market place... if im not mistaken, all the japanese/korean car companies that are opening billions of dollars worth of plants in the US and hiring thousands of lay'd off domestic auto workers dont allow unions... am i the only one that is seeing a glaring problem here? in-fact GM and Ford do pretty well in their foreign operations, relative to their US operations... wonder why...
there is definitly value in being exclusive.. but there is also value in being in "every garage"... being "big" brings "influence"... the world is being run more and more by corporations...
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From: formerly versionJDM
Originally Posted by QUIKAG,Apr 24 2007, 07:26 AM
When the most exciting vehicle that Toyota makes is the IS350, I don't really care if they are the sales leader.
They make cars for the masses, not for the enthusiasts.
They make cars for the masses, not for the enthusiasts.
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From: Arlington Heights, IL
Originally Posted by QUIKAG,Apr 24 2007, 01:15 PM
CTS-V
STS-V
XLR-V
GTO
C6
Z06
Hell, even the Cobalt SS Supercharged is more exciting than 99% of the Toyota offerings. The Impala SS is a more exciting sedan than the Camry BY FAR.
Name, one Toyota offering that even comes close to the above cars in it's class? There is NONE.
STS-V
XLR-V
GTO
C6
Z06
Hell, even the Cobalt SS Supercharged is more exciting than 99% of the Toyota offerings. The Impala SS is a more exciting sedan than the Camry BY FAR.
Name, one Toyota offering that even comes close to the above cars in it's class? There is NONE.
I'm hardly a fanboi of either Toyota OR GM, but come on, it's ridiculous to say Toyota can't/doesn't compete on ANY level. You can pick flaws with the TC and the GS430 about "oh, the GM car accelerats .02 faster to 60" or whatever, but there's no question the Toyota cars, do, in fact, "even come close" as you put it.
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From: formerly versionJDM
Originally Posted by Chris Stack,Apr 24 2007, 01:30 PM
The GS430 is a pretty good match for the STS-V, and the Scion TC with TRD supercharger is pretty close to the Cobalt SS. I'd also put money on the new ISF500 or whatever they are calling it to compete pretty handily with the CTS-V. And you might be one of 8 or 10 people in the US that wants a 303hp, fwd, 4-speed Impala SS.
I'm hardly a fanboi of either Toyota OR GM, but come on, it's ridiculous to say Toyota can't/doesn't compete on ANY level. You can pick flaws with the TC and the GS430 about "oh, the GM car accelerats .02 faster to 60" or whatever, but there's no question the Toyota cars, do, in fact, "even come close" as you put it.
I'm hardly a fanboi of either Toyota OR GM, but come on, it's ridiculous to say Toyota can't/doesn't compete on ANY level. You can pick flaws with the TC and the GS430 about "oh, the GM car accelerats .02 faster to 60" or whatever, but there's no question the Toyota cars, do, in fact, "even come close" as you put it.
and as a LONG time GM fan/owner it tough to agree with that, but its spot on. the only GM made in the last 10 years worth a damn are the Duramax trucks(izuzu), the C5/C6 vettes and the M6 GTOs along with the LS series motors.
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From: MAHT-O-MEDI
Originally Posted by gbuka,Apr 24 2007, 02:34 PM
So far as I see it, they've been riding that wave. What if the trends change significantly? Can they adopt?
They go after profit and weaker companies like hungry wolves, and as soon as they feel they can make money or push a struggling automaker further into the red with sports cars, they will do it. The IS350 engine is begging to be put into a raodster.
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From: Arlington Heights, IL
Originally Posted by gbuka,Apr 24 2007, 03:34 PM
What I'm curious about is how Toyota will do once the trends change. They're good at their 'schtick', of making ultra-reliable(as perceived) efficient cars. So far as I see it, they've been riding that wave. What if the trends change significantly? Can they adopt?
I can only envision trends going TOWARDS what Toyota is doing now, not away from them.
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From: Raleigh, NC
well since i get to work on cars every day.
The improvement in toyotas quality has been steady and precise. They have maintained cost saving measures such as using the same radio harness for like 18 years. GM however thinks its better to change it every 2 years and intrgrate all sorts of stupid crap into their oem radios.
The build quality of toyota has been consistant and improves every model year. GM, jesus they still dont get it. hard plastic ends up looking like total crap after a few years. I am driving a brand new pontiac rental and i want to stab my eyes out. The seats feel like office chairs and the door panels and dash feel like walmart quality plastic. `
This was a HUGE turn off for me when i went to test drive a Solstice. The interior sucked so much i didnt even want to drive it. GM = rental cars. Thats just how they strike me, I just cant imagine someone walking into a dealership hopping in a car and thinking to themselves. "wow this interior is nice" HA. maybe comparied to a 80s pile of crap.
All the new toyotas i work on feel great and the styling is subtle but the overall feel of the interior is great. I wouldnt mind one as a daily driver At all.
The improvement in toyotas quality has been steady and precise. They have maintained cost saving measures such as using the same radio harness for like 18 years. GM however thinks its better to change it every 2 years and intrgrate all sorts of stupid crap into their oem radios.
The build quality of toyota has been consistant and improves every model year. GM, jesus they still dont get it. hard plastic ends up looking like total crap after a few years. I am driving a brand new pontiac rental and i want to stab my eyes out. The seats feel like office chairs and the door panels and dash feel like walmart quality plastic. `
This was a HUGE turn off for me when i went to test drive a Solstice. The interior sucked so much i didnt even want to drive it. GM = rental cars. Thats just how they strike me, I just cant imagine someone walking into a dealership hopping in a car and thinking to themselves. "wow this interior is nice" HA. maybe comparied to a 80s pile of crap. All the new toyotas i work on feel great and the styling is subtle but the overall feel of the interior is great. I wouldnt mind one as a daily driver At all.