Just a discussion topic. Posted this in clublexus, but also wanted to know what the S2000 Car Talk folk thought.

Everyone knows that Lexus trails the likes of BMW, Mercedes, and Audi in terms of building performance oriented vehicles.

Yes they've shown some flashes of brilliance like the 2nd Gen GS400, IS-F and the LF-A, but it's still not part of their norm.

What are some ideas of how they can expand their performance credibility while not alienating their clientele?

My initial thoughts are more thought out "Sport" packages that can be added to the models from the factory. Similar to BMW it would have a different suspension, different seats, beefier steering wheel, increased speed limiter, etc. I think this is something very do-able. The F-Sport line can be pretty pricey compared to the "sport" packages offered by BMW, Mercedes, and Audi. I would think the sport package would be an in-between for the base and F-Sport lines.

Expansion of the F-line. GS-F would be the next logical step. A lot has been made of the current IS-F being a "skunkworks" project. I think it has proven to be fairly formidable against the competition, especially with the latest suspension tweaks. Imagine what the next gen could be when the chassis is developed with the IS-F in mind.

Does Lexus need to develop manual transmissions? I know the IS250 has one, but that's the weakest car in the IS-line. And also some sort of dual-clutch box? The IS-F has a modified automatic, but it's still overall an automatic.

Okay... your thoughts?

 

Lexus has a LONG way to go to even make a car feel like a sports or performance vehicle. I've just gotten rid of an is250 because it had the worst car feel since a 1908's Buick station wagon we had.

My wife even hated driving it.

They make APPLIANCES, they don't make cars.

I've driven the isF and it has the same feel. It goes faster, but feels the same. No fun whatsoever.

 

I find it funny that Lexus is often compared to BMW, and MB.... and while their vehicles may attempt to do many similar things, at similar pricepoints their brands are wildly different. Lexus is however comparable to Audi.

Let's first of all think about what Lexus is. Lexus is first and foremost, an upgraded Toyota. These aren't exactly original chassis', original designs. BMW is it's mainstream brand, same with Mercedes (although they do have Maybach, but that's so out there it's not even relevant to this convorsation).

First off I want to say of all the mainstream German flavors, Audi is my overall favorite. I love their design, their interior, their performance.... the total package to me. However, I'm not one to fool myself into thinking that the Audi 'racing' line is quite at the same level as its M and AMG counter-parts. Quite frankly, you can only take a DD VW chassis/design and push it so far, before you hit its limits, the same can be said for Lexus performance being bred from its lower level Toyota brethren.

In short I think Lexus shoulda not over-extend itself, and continue to do what they do, as they do it quite well. They're well engineered, good looking, comfortable, technological, and most their most important asset; reliable. IMO the only way for Lexus/Audi to really directly compete against MB/BMW would be to design their cars from the top of the tree down, but this would put a strain on their cash-cow, lower end markets as those prices would likely jump.

In short, unless Lexus seperated itself completely from Toyota, I see no problem with its current brand structure.

 

Most people don't see it the way I do, but I've never been a believer that a company's products are a true reflection of their engineering and manufacturing capabilities; it's more a huge compromise between engineering ability, profitability targets, reliability/durability/longevity/fuel efficiency targets (like hitting govt mandated fleet mileage goals), time to market, and more than anything else...acceptance by their customer base.
So really, the only real challenge for lexus is to introduce products and options that aren't in line with their core audience (ie sport packages, F models, etc) and somehow maintain enough funding and focus to make them good products, and to slowly build volume until it gains critical mass.
This is a big reason why i think Lexus came out of the gate a little softer than some people had hoped for...they were trying to build a value equation relative to the european competition (like they always have), but they had to maintain lower price, fuel economy, reliability, longevity, etc...all of the things we expect out of lexus but don't necessarily jive in the category.
The 2011 is definitely headed in the right direction. I have no doubt that the engineers at Toyota have the capability of building a world-beater in the next gen; but it is a matter of whether the bean counters will let them do it, if the brand managers think it is necessary, or if the brand trade offs are worth it, or if it will just result in BMW outspending them for a miniscule edge on the next M3. I think I know the answer to that question: they'll shoot for 95% of the performance (because they know BMW will defend that title to the bitter end) of an M3, at $10-$15k less equally equipped, with much better economy/reliability/longevity. It has done the trick for them before and I think they'll stick with it.

 

Maybe instead of starting off with an LFA, they should have tried something more Boxster-like. I don't think they learned anything from the LFA that will translate into a high production vehicle. But some people like the feel and percieved reliability of a Lexus (as opposed to a german car) for those people the F - series car is fine.

 

The ISF you drove must be different from the one I bought... mine gets down the road just fine, even when driven at 11/10ths... yeah, it might be a few ticks slower the an M3 on a road course although I have held my own running against some of the local BMW flock... but what I get is a car that will get me from point a to point b quickly... it can be entertaining to drive, and oh yea, I don't anticipate being on a first name basis with Hans, my service writer... extra points, you don't see an F car much and I can check my oil with a dip stick and don't have to rely on some electronic nanny to tell me when I am down a quart which, from my experience with Audi's and BMW's, is not an uncommon occurence.

Everyone likes something different... I like ISF's...

 

Lexus has had the SC since day one and its never been a sports sedan but a two-door sedan, or a really ugly, poor driving convertible. Lexus could make it an SL competitor.

The real problem is that Toyota doesn't make sports cars, so neither do Scion, Lexus, etc. All Lexus would need to do is actually make a sports car, but considering that the IS-F was an under the table project, I don't think the corporate culture will foster sports cars. The F line of add ons seems weak to me too.

 

+1

Couldn't agree more with Saki GT. The add-ons are expensive and relatively basic. Sure, you can get suspension and wheels but how about a comprehensive set of small changes (including throttle mapping) so that you get more than just a few parts clapped onto the car? Make a "package" that actually works together and is intended to be installed at the factory, not the dealer. It'll cut costs and improve the overall package.

Honestly, you can probably upgrade to equal or better parts from aftermarket companies (suspension components and wheels) for LESS money. I know OEM is generally more expensive but some of the Lexus sport options are insanely expensive for what you're getting.

 

All brands have compromises in different ways, and we all have to deal with them. Will I ever buy a late model Benz/BMW due to their lack of an engine dipstick? I don't know, but it certainly dissuades me from buying one. Same goes with the standard run flat tires on bmw's (perhaps more importantly is the lack of a spare tire well).

Like Lexus engineers have to compromise with the business, so does BMW compromise for its business. Run flat tires standard, and no spare tire well? They certainly can be had with standard tires and a spare tire over in Europe. You can bet the engineers probably wanted an oil dipstick (and probably standard tires), but the bean counters would much prefer a Rube Goldberg machine instead.

 

Having no dipstick, no sliding sunroof, no manual transmission, no tampon kit, etc, etc. will always have an effect on buyers' decisions, that's just the way the cookie crumbles. Will it have a huge impact on sales? Probably not.

Everyone these days (not just car manufacturers) is constantly trying to diversify their portfolios. Singers into actors into pr0n stars into reality tv stars. A couch into a sports car (Lexus), a sports car into a couch (BMW). If people would just focus on what they're good at and stop being greedy, there would be a lot less dilution of brand's roots, and no vertigo inducing songs by Real Housewives... but also less competition I suppose, so there's good and bad.

Anyway, I personally think Lexus did everything ass backwards by launching the LF-A and then building the new IS-F off of the FT-86 platform (that- should have come first). I'm not convinced that they're serious about being 'fun' until that happens.