Why aren't there more performance,
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Buy a 335i, spend $600 on a jb4, and you have a 400+hp small sedan that is comfortable, decent-looking, and plenty of fun to drive. I've put nearly 90k miles on mine in 2.5 years (70k of which has had the jb3), and my only issue was a failed hpfp (no surprise there), which is covered by the standard warranty to 120k miles.
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From: Palo Alto
Originally Posted by MBHs2k' timestamp='1340093646' post='21793113
I think a couple year old CTS-V might fit your guidelines, except it gets terrible MPGs.
Test drive a G37, it's a great car.
How about IS350?
The IS350 was already ruled out.
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I guess it depends on how you define boring.. Anything FWD = boring to me these days, especially for a real "sport sedan." I think the TL, passat, etc. are "sporty" sedans. They want to be fun/quick, but ultimately they're still fwd, understeer, gotta watch for wheelspin in the lower gears, etc. I understand why people get them (more efficient being fwd, good for occasional snow, etc), they're just not at all for me. To each his own, I just understand where the OP is coming from.
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And elaborate on the "absolutely horrible" drivetrains, please.
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Originally Posted by Driven' timestamp='1340124002' post='21794168
[quote name='MBHs2k' timestamp='1340093646' post='21793113']
I think a couple year old CTS-V might fit your guidelines, except it gets terrible MPGs.
I think a couple year old CTS-V might fit your guidelines, except it gets terrible MPGs.
Test drive a G37, it's a great car.
How about IS350?
The IS350 was already ruled out.
[/quote]
The CTS-V is far more exciting to drive than either the G37 or the IS350, and the second-gen model has superior interior quality as well. Black out the chrome trim and badges and you'd have a luxurious, fast, and reasonably anonymous car.
Personally, though, i'd spend $25k on an early-2000s M5 and set the rest of the 40k budget aside for maintenance. The E39 M5 puts every sports sedan built since (E90 M3 included) to shame for pure driving involvement.
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I think the 2013 Cadillac ATS will probably tweak your interest. Supposedly as good or better than a 3-Series w/ sport package (for handling) with plenty of power, decent interior and moderate weight. It goes on sale this summer.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...ac-ats-feature
Cliffs:
Roughly same size as 3-Series
Starting weight less than 3400 lbs
RWD
Brembo brakes w/ top two motors (2.0L turbo and 3.6L V6)
FE suspension option w/ 225F/255R tires and LSD
2.0L turbo has 270 hp and 260 ft-lbs and is available with 6MT
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...ac-ats-feature
Cliffs:
Roughly same size as 3-Series
Starting weight less than 3400 lbs
RWD
Brembo brakes w/ top two motors (2.0L turbo and 3.6L V6)
FE suspension option w/ 225F/255R tires and LSD
2.0L turbo has 270 hp and 260 ft-lbs and is available with 6MT
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,575
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From: Montana
Originally Posted by rockville' timestamp='1340128772' post='21794446
[quote name='Driven' timestamp='1340124002' post='21794168']
[quote name='MBHs2k' timestamp='1340093646' post='21793113']
I think a couple year old CTS-V might fit your guidelines, except it gets terrible MPGs.
[quote name='MBHs2k' timestamp='1340093646' post='21793113']
I think a couple year old CTS-V might fit your guidelines, except it gets terrible MPGs.
Test drive a G37, it's a great car.
How about IS350?
The IS350 was already ruled out.
[/quote]
The CTS-V is far more exciting to drive than either the G37 or the IS350, and the second-gen model has superior interior quality as well. Black out the chrome trim and badges and you'd have a luxurious, fast, and reasonably anonymous car.
Personally, though, i'd spend $25k on an early-2000s M5 and set the rest of the 40k budget aside for maintenance. The E39 M5 puts every sports sedan built since (E90 M3 included) to shame for pure driving involvement.
[/quote]
I hear that! Love that M5.
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From: Palo Alto
Originally Posted by rockville' timestamp='1340122818' post='21794099
Most FWD V6 cars are boring but not all. The Contour SVT (which by today's standards isn't powerful) was a great driving car. The B5 Passat V6 also was a good handler. It's not that it's can't happen. It's just that it doesn't happen that often.
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Here ya go.............Under 40K
As a former Contour SVT owner I understand the question. The old Ford was great. A neighbor of mine who owned an S4 at the time once told me, never sell that car because you have to step up to an S4 to really beat it. He used to own one.
I'm not worried about really big power. If the weight is under control I don't need it to be much faster than say 0-60 in the 6s. What the Ford had was a balance of decent price, a motor that loved to play, and BMW like suspension tuning. It didn't have to be the fastest car on the block (it wasn't but it wasn't slow for the time).
RWD would be nice but cars like the Integra, Prelude, FWD SVT cars, MINIs etc it's clear that FWD can deliver a car that's worthy of enthusiasm. Really, I have more hopes that we will see a good FWD car in this class given the larger number of candidates. A Fusion SVT is the one I would really like to see. I think the car looks good and I have great confidence in Ford's ability to tune a chassis. Now if they can find a good manual to go with it...
I'm not worried about really big power. If the weight is under control I don't need it to be much faster than say 0-60 in the 6s. What the Ford had was a balance of decent price, a motor that loved to play, and BMW like suspension tuning. It didn't have to be the fastest car on the block (it wasn't but it wasn't slow for the time).
RWD would be nice but cars like the Integra, Prelude, FWD SVT cars, MINIs etc it's clear that FWD can deliver a car that's worthy of enthusiasm. Really, I have more hopes that we will see a good FWD car in this class given the larger number of candidates. A Fusion SVT is the one I would really like to see. I think the car looks good and I have great confidence in Ford's ability to tune a chassis. Now if they can find a good manual to go with it...
I was in a similar position you were in (except I was looking to spend no more than $30k and only used), and opted to purchase an s2k.. 
The "sport sedan" segement is full of compromises and things I didn't like, so I opted to just buy an s2k a cpl years back. The closest thing that fit the bill was a used 3 series w/ sport package. One big gripe I had about the 3 series is the lack of a compartment for a spare tire, and the IS series doesn't have rear fold down seats. Also, only the is250 RWD comes in manual, the 250AWD and 350 are auto only.. It really came down to the IS and 3 series for me, but they were large enough annoyances that I opted to just get an s2k and keep my civic for the winter and occasional driving. I find the "sport sedan" market severely lacking, for the same reasons you mentioned.
I didn't even consider anything FWD, so that crossed out the TL right off the bat. A powerful v6 + FWD = boring imo. I'm past the "boy racer" stage of getting a WRX or EVO, and wanted something a little more tame, but still fun. At this point I think I'm just going to embrace the fact that I'm going to be stuck with an auto for my next sedan.. Perhaps I'll replace the civic with a nice C class in a couple years, and the s2k will satisfy my itch.
Good luck!
The "sport sedan" segement is full of compromises and things I didn't like, so I opted to just buy an s2k a cpl years back. The closest thing that fit the bill was a used 3 series w/ sport package. One big gripe I had about the 3 series is the lack of a compartment for a spare tire, and the IS series doesn't have rear fold down seats. Also, only the is250 RWD comes in manual, the 250AWD and 350 are auto only.. It really came down to the IS and 3 series for me, but they were large enough annoyances that I opted to just get an s2k and keep my civic for the winter and occasional driving. I find the "sport sedan" market severely lacking, for the same reasons you mentioned.
I didn't even consider anything FWD, so that crossed out the TL right off the bat. A powerful v6 + FWD = boring imo. I'm past the "boy racer" stage of getting a WRX or EVO, and wanted something a little more tame, but still fun. At this point I think I'm just going to embrace the fact that I'm going to be stuck with an auto for my next sedan.. Perhaps I'll replace the civic with a nice C class in a couple years, and the s2k will satisfy my itch.
Good luck!
That's 9 different models you mentioned, if my counting is correct. How many more do you want to have available to choose from? I certainly understand the frustration that none is exactly perfect for you, but considering the constraints "midsize performance sedan under $40k with manual transmission and understated styling" I think 9 choices is a lot.
Some to add to the list:
Volkswagen GTI
Volvo S60 T6
Mitsubishi Lancer Ralliart
So that's 12 models.
In the realm of $40k-ish sport sedans I've test-driven, the Lancer Ralliart and the 2013 BMW 328i (with the 240hp turbocharged inline-4) have been the most enjoyable to drive. The Mitsi is cheaper to purchase, but the mpg difference makes the BMW cheaper over a long enough distance.
Some to add to the list:
Volkswagen GTI
Volvo S60 T6
Mitsubishi Lancer Ralliart
So that's 12 models.
In the realm of $40k-ish sport sedans I've test-driven, the Lancer Ralliart and the 2013 BMW 328i (with the 240hp turbocharged inline-4) have been the most enjoyable to drive. The Mitsi is cheaper to purchase, but the mpg difference makes the BMW cheaper over a long enough distance.
GTI = I have no interest in FWD (thought this was clear) or hatches
S60 T6 = doesn't come in a manual
Lancer = finicky interior. Why you even bothered to mention this failboat of a car is beyond me.
Now what IS interesting that you mentioned is the '13 base 3series. Had no idea that they come with a decent pair of balls now. Would love to hear more feedback and the longevity/reliability factor of the new turbocharged i4.
If I wanted to know what it's like to drive a bathtub, I'd just go start a bubble bath and make engine noises.
Looks like it.
I thought about having forgotten to include this car in the list but as someone has already mentioned, this car is known to have a glass tranny. And I'm not the biggest fan of how the rear bumper looks either. But thank you for the suggestion!
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,414
Likes: 3
Buy a 335i, spend $600 on a jb4, and you have a 400+hp small sedan that is comfortable, decent-looking, and plenty of fun to drive. I've put nearly 90k miles on mine in 2.5 years (70k of which has had the jb3), and my only issue was a failed hpfp (no surprise there), which is covered by the standard warranty to 120k miles.
I think the 2013 Cadillac ATS will probably tweak your interest. Supposedly as good or better than a 3-Series w/ sport package (for handling) with plenty of power, decent interior and moderate weight. It goes on sale this summer.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...ac-ats-feature
Cliffs:
Roughly same size as 3-Series
Starting weight less than 3400 lbs
RWD
Brembo brakes w/ top two motors (2.0L turbo and 3.6L V6)
FE suspension option w/ 225F/255R tires and LSD
2.0L turbo has 270 hp and 260 ft-lbs and is available with 6MT
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...ac-ats-feature
Cliffs:
Roughly same size as 3-Series
Starting weight less than 3400 lbs
RWD
Brembo brakes w/ top two motors (2.0L turbo and 3.6L V6)
FE suspension option w/ 225F/255R tires and LSD
2.0L turbo has 270 hp and 260 ft-lbs and is available with 6MT