zbrewha863

Got this off of Invision's blog, it had a link to this blog which was made by Endless, an extremely high-quality JDM manufacturer.

http://og-made.com/ <--- should be first post, title is same as this thread


FWIW, I agree with Endless ... the "tuner" market in the USA is basically a price war where very few consumers actually (1) appreciate what goes into the products, and the quality that comes out and (2) has enough money or is willing to save money for enough time (sometimes years) in order to afford top-tier products.

I would probably prefer that companies like Endless focus on their core competencies, producing race parts and extremely high-performance street parts in Japan for people who are willing to pay for them, rather than becoming another Tein and trying to straddle the fence ... Tein was in the same category as Endless at one time, and now when I see a Tein product I have to question whether it is a product they actually stand behind (in terms of its production vis a vis their own corporate mantra or philosophy) or if it's just another attempt to price themselves into the US market. Maybe I'm also a little bit of an old fogey (not really, I'm 24), but I miss the days when you could go to a Japanese company because you expected quality, that form follows function, and not that they were trying to price themselves into competing with companies like those mentioned in the article above.

Not to kiss [expletive], but I think that's a reason that a lot of us are glad Bulletproof sponsors this forum -- for the *most* part, I think that they sell products that align with these values, and moreover provide great service -- remember when you had to search for months to get an Endless big brake kit, or learn to speak Japanese? I wonder if those days will come again....

Ouhei

I agree to a point. I don't think there's anything wrong with cheaper parts for the most part, so long as you know what you have. If you want to buy a cheaper coilover kit to lower your car and you won't ever track it, go for it.

I don't think the tuner market is dead, but it more has become 2 separate markets. You have the people that want to mod their car just so it looks good or sounds good, and you have the people that want to mod their car to gain performance. Even within the people who want to gain performance there is a sort of divide. Someone who wants his car to be a bit faster and handle a bit better, and may occasionally track or autocross his car doesn't need to unload 3g's on his coilovers. While a guy who tracks his car weekly might want to invest more in something made to last on the track.

I personally find myself in the first performance group. I want my car to look good, and be enjoyable to drive, I'd like it to be better than stock, but I don't track my car (none close by) and will go to the occasional autocross.

There will always be a market for the cheap stuff, for people that just want the look, but there will also be the market for the true enthusiast, who is more willing to pay more for quality.

But it also raises the question, is the guy that spends $2k on his exhaust and $2k on his coilover set up but only trailers his car to shows and the occasional drive more true to the sport than the guy with a "cheaper" set up that drives his car everyday and/or on the track?

cuonice

The tuner market has become the show car market. Very few people who track their cars regularly are going to invest in one of Endless' products. Rotor replacement cost, fewer pad options, wheel clearance issues, etc.

I care what goes into a product, but I cant spend 4k on "baller" brakes

GT Motoring

For, those to lazy to click, here is the blog entry in full. I'm posting it, because i agree with most of what they are saying.

[QUOTE]Kent

GT Motoring

Now, my 2 cents:

First, there are differences between "cheap" product and just lower cost product. There are so many oppertunities out there to have "cheap" parts, even for my comapany. I can litterly go out and say, hmm. i want to have a coilover brand. Few emails and phone calls later, bam, its done. Why? There are companies in Taiwan, China etc. that produce all these parts. Even a certain claimed "jdm" brand a forum sponsor sells, i know isnt made in japan because i was approached to sell the SAME parts buy an asian manufacturer. There is great margins in it for companies profitability, and no R&D costs absorbed by them, because the vendor/company just slaps their label on it and calls it theirs. This happens with MANY of the low cost companies. K sport, D2, Megan, Password JDM ( just to name a few ) Exhausts, brake kits, coilovers, suspension parts etc. They can all open catolgue for a usually taiwan or china supplier and pick out what they want to sell, and then have their name engraved/printed on the part. Now you have your own brand, good margins, and no overhead of R&D costs. SWEET. and because you have none of these expenses, you can now offer if for a low price, because you dont have to recoup this money. Some companies, on the other hand either can offer cost effective consumer product because they have the means to do so. For example, Eibach can make quality race springs, lowering springs for a decent cost because they own many if not all of the production facilities they use. This means they do not have any middle men. Their products arent the lowest cost, but about in the middle. They also spend a decent amount of time with R&D ,so they have to make that money back. I know for fact for instance, they tested springs for a good while before releasing any for the s2k. Because the car is so good stock, many changes, even small, could make it handle worse than stock. I've recently sat and talked with the race driver that did this testing. Also, currently, we are helping a Japan based company that produces all the OEM Honda springs with their US market coilovers for the S2k. I spent all of last weekend on the track making adjustments, recording feedback, talking with professionals, and more. Simply, i want this company to be the benchmark product in its price point and target market end user.

The pricewar thing is totally true. When we post up items for sale on the forum, we dont put "PM for best price", we post our price that we thing is a good deal for you guys, and in turn we strive to offer the best products and service for you. Most the time, not all, the "PM for pricing" means, we are gunna sell the item for what we arent allowed to be the manufacturer or something. Why do people do this undercutting? because they dont know the RIGHT way to run a business for long term sustainability. Some may servive, but many may not. Like most businesses, you have rent and many utilities and random costs. If you arent making any profit, you cant pay your bills. So this is why some companies just sling parts, and as many as they can, no matter the brand or quality. They'll just offer it for low low price, hoping to win the customer on price only. This exetends into pushing "cheap" brands often. We refuse to sell anything i wouldnt use myself, or trust on my own cars. It's just my way. Not all will agree with it I'm sure.

With certain cars and markets, you also kind of have a certain price level that works. The s2k market is kind of in the middle right now. You still have plent of 25-40 owners etc, that want high quality parts for their cars, and most have incomes that can support it. On the other end 16 year old first time drivers can now buy an s2000 for 14k, and only have very limited funds to do what they can. I have been young once too, and i couldnt afford the best, but I saved money, and eventually got GOOD product for my car at the time. There are many out there, and on this board that do the same. But the point is, you have some people that can only afford the $600 coilovers, and want the slammed look only, and dont care about the performance. Which is ok. Its not my way, but i dont know it all either. More often than not, the people that bought "cheap" product end up regretting it, and dont make the same mistake twice. For most, its just economics. What can i afford? Some of us werent ever handed a thing, and some were given it all. Its just they way the world is.

Honestly, i have soooo much i can say on this topic, i could write all day. Sorry if i totally rambled, but i just wrote things as they came. Ive been in product development since college, so these types of things are on my mind daily.

What do people want? what can the consumer justify spending? how can we make the best product for our target market? why will people buy my product over company X (benefit)? can we turn a profit to support the business and its future?

This is what i think most GOOD companies go through before they even put a product on the drawing board. They dont open a catolgue and say, what can i stick my name on and make some money with this week.

North Star

Cost is definitely the factor here, especially in a country where everything has a price. No wonder most people look for the cheapest things.

High end companies should at least sell entry level products to get their brand and quality hooked into the individual. This would also build consumer confidence in the product brand and that same consumer will most likely save for the higher end piece in the future.

Bilstein for example has an entry level coilover for street and occasional track use, the PSS, and then also takes the adjustability a few steps further with the PSS9.

I know that Bilstein has the funds to time of do these things because of their success in race and consumer vehicles, but why can't other high end companies?

zbrewha863

I agree with you to a certain point, I am not saying that unless you buy the absolute highest-quality product you suck at life, I realize that different consumers have different needs and will judge products accordingly.

I view that in light of the industry though; it started as people making parts at home to make their cars faster, then some people sought out the guys (or girls, if there were any back then racing and winning enough) who had the fastest cars and commissioned them to make the same parts for their own cars. The entire industry was born on a basis of necessity as it relates to function (in my view), in my mind the people who are buying the "inferior" products do so in order to, as you said, "get the look," but are in actuality selling out in order to imitate something that has garnered actual respect by themselves or someone else.

If your car is the one in your sig, and the parts are authentic, then I would think to some degree you would understand the idea of quality over price.

I really do not think that it has anything to do with the actual use of the parts as justifying imitating "the look." If I go buy a knockoff hardtop, Megan coilovers and exhaust, and take my car to the track with all those parts on, there is a good chance that I will garner more respect than the guy with authentic parts who makes his car a trailer queen or even a dyno queen, but in that case I'm garnering my respect from my actions, not from my parts. Inexpensive parts that have a good use and good quality make sense, that is the basic idea of market economies and even suppliers to top race teams understand that, but there is a line that more people in this country have crossed relative to those worldwide that divides a "form follows function" idea (as you seem to be espousing in your last paragraph) in favor of a "get the look" or "get the sound" ideology (as you seem to be espousing in your first couple paragraphs). Two completely different things.

GT Motoring

Alot of the parts we are currently working for s2k, and other cars like Porsche are "high end" We use the best materials and processes we have available for parts. We have released some carbon parts like out exhaust caps and trunk lip spoilers. They arent REAL low in cost, but reasonable. We needed to product some less expensive parts, but not lesser quality, to gain consumer trust and show the quality, before moving up to more expensive and advanced parts.

Like any product, in any market. you have different end users. The PSS and PSS9, arent entry level, but are for street going cars, or cars with light track duty planned. Bilstein made the best product they could, to meet those needs likely. You dont need some of the more advanced components on the street setup.

Silver9k

I haven't read everything yet. But I just want to point out that a big brake kit often does little for those tracking their car. The stock brakes are very compitent. Going to endless brakes which don't offer ABS typically doesn't make it much faster if at all.

And for the $2000 exhausts out there...cars get beat up on the track, why would an enthusiast want a $2000 exhaust that is just going to get trashed, an extra 2hp isn't that big of a deal but 20 more track days certainly sounds fun.

Or how about the crazy CF intakes...they don't even add that much power, they are more for the bling factor then anything else. An enthusiast will not see the purpose in putting over 1000 towards an intake that gives very little return.

I'd agree that the "tuner" market is very much show car oriented. The high prices and small return over "inferior" products isn't worth it to an enthusiast. And its not because they want the "look" its because they are looking at return for money spent, and the fact that they will actually be using what they buy and understand that it wont last forever (regardless of it being JDM or not).

After I come back and read through this I throw in my other penny.

North Star

This is another factor. What would one consider entry level? Like my example of the Bilstein CO's. I chose to use that comparison because it relates to the function and form I am looking for, for mostly street use.

I know I could find a cheap set of CO's starting from about $600 to get the look, but that just doesn't sit right with my ideals for my S.