As far as mainstream rap, I listen primarily to Tupac, Eminem, and Bone (love all the albums up until Art of War). Personally, I think Eminem is far better technically than Tupac ever was. Eminem's lyrics and beats are way more complex, and he's creative as Hell. But where Tupac absolutely shines is in the intangibles...somehow, despite the relatively simplistic lyrics (compared to Eminem) and also relatively simple beats, when Tupac speaks, I understand him 100%. He just conveys things in a manner where you totally feel him, and I honestly can't place my finger on why. Moreover, the guy wears so many different masks in his songs - there's the angry Pac, loving Pac, partying Pac, and the best IMO, the desperate Pac. That's what makes him so great. Overall, I recognize that Eminem is better as a lyricist, but Tupac just delivers a kind of emotion that few other rappers, if any, can match. For that reason, Tupac is my single favorite rapper, ever. I've also noticed that Eminem is more of story teller, while Tupac doesn't do much story telling.

Btw, does anyone listen to Bay Area underground rap? Like the stuff from the early to mid 90's? That era was one of my favorites. When RBL, JT, 4-Tay, Black Dynasty, Cold World Hustlaz, etc., were blowing up.

 

One of the world's great poets heaps praise on the bad boy of hip hop.

Nobel praise for Eminem

http://news.com.au/common/story_page/0,405...5E13780,00.html

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cyber_x
[B]

As far as mainstream rap, I listen primarily to Tupac, Eminem, and Bone (love all the albums up until Art of War).

 

Eminem=Thug

Picking on a plastic baby for publicity.

Please.

 

Now that is an overstament! Gotta agree with EvoVII on this. Just how many years do you go back to make your assessment of his skills? Try listening to "Follow the Leader" by Eric B and Rakim from about 1988 for 5 and a half minutes of kick ass lyrics. Or most other early Rakim songs for that matter. How about the Ice-T's early stuff like "Rhyme Pays", "Pain" or "Squeeze the Trigger"? Early Public Enemy? Not to mention the Kings of Rock Run DMC? Get on Kazaa and grab some of this stuff before declaring Eminem king.

Now I like Eminem also, so don't think I am bashing him, but I don't think he is the most talented rapper to ever live.

 

I think what the guy is trying to say is that certain genre's of music require much more discipline, talent, and dedication in order to achieve. Take classical music as an example.. Compare the life works of Mozart, Bach, etc... and try to compare that kind of talent to any of the 'pop' music that has been produced in the past 30 years. Arguably, all the talent combined probably wouldn't amount to a hill of beans compared to the musical accomplishment of any one of these composers. In fact some might say that we are in another dark ages as far as art is concerned, music or otherwise.

While Eminem and a few other 'pop' music stars may have some talent, their work is far from worthy of serious academic study or reproduction. I almost think of it as the 'WWF' of music.

In some ways our own lifestyles influence the kind of music we listen to, enjoy, and produce. We live in a world of instant gratification and it shows more than in just the way we live but also in art and entertainment. How many of us here would actually sit down and be 'entertained' for the entire duration of a symphony, concerto, or maybe even something as short as a sonata or prelude. Even the classical music sold on TV is not in its complete form... instead you get these small glimpses or selected movements of a whole piece, but never the entire work.

To me, engaging music has development (almost like characters in a book), recurring themes (not some brainless rapper screaming the same old lines over and over), anticipation, climax, resolution... almost all the characteristics of a good book or play.

Do I listen to Eminem, Tupac, Ludacris.... yep. I enjoy pop music as much as the next guy but use the word 'talent' sparingly. While Eminem may be much better than most other rappers out there, his words will be long forgotten years down the road. Our culture makes little music anymore, mainly we produce entertainers.

 

ccarnel, praise the lord!!! You also see the light!!!

But seriously, I agree with you, I also listen to pop music and enjoy it , but "talent" is a word thrown around much to often by people that just don't know what talent really is when it comes to music. To me, talent isnt really about an opinion, it's mostly about the facts. What can this artist do well that most others can't do. That kind of thing. Now liking or disliking a certain style or artist, that's an opinion thing. I do not like Eminem as a musician or is it entertainer? because musically everything I've heard from him isn't very imaginative and very repetitive. Now on an opinion side I find him to be a bad role model to anyone, he's white thrash, uses ridiculously found language to extremes etc. etc.

I often wonder what some people certain criteria is to have talent.
I agree Enimem may be better than many of his counterparts but In my small minded little brain of mine I still don't qualify rap....umm I mean hip hop as being up there with Classical or even a lot of Jazz when it comes to raw talent, dedication and discipline.

And one thing that irks me is to hear rappers go off "rhyming" (the lyrics often dont even rhyme anymore) to this beat and miss a cue or not go off time.

It make's me laugh because it's so fundamental in music that to do that would be downright embarassing to say the least. Oh well, like they always say "To each his own"

Oh and ccarnel your WWF comment made me think of something.....I think rap in general seems more like WWF style entertainment that music to me. (with these huge egos and over the top personalities, constant clashing of "crews"

oh and btw I do enjoy rap but mostly the old school stuff (run dmc, grand master flash, Even some older dr. Dre)

 

I'll be the first to admit that I know jack shit about classical music, but I don't understand why it matters how difficult something is to do. Whether a given task (i.e. composing music) requires more or less skill to complete doesn't mean the end result is necessarily more or less enjoyable.

You guys can postulate that classical music requires more skill and talent to compose...I won't argue with that, since like I said, I don't know shit about classical music. What I do know is that I've heard a lot of classical music (my father is a big fan of it and has a huge collection) and I can't stand it. To me, it's utterly boring. My mind wants quicker and more verbal stimulation than classical music provides, and I don't care how much emotion is conveyed through it. Personally, I enjoy rap, R&B, and pretty much any other pop music infinitely more than classical music.

My point is - what does it matter how much skill is involved in making the music? I know what I enjoy, and I don't give a damn if it's more or less skilled than some other type of music. Eminem isn't trying to make classical music, and I sure as Hell don't think Beethoven would've made a very good rapper, so the comparison is entirely pointless.

Here's a question. Those of who dislike Eminem and other pop artists, what other genres of music in the last 50 years or so would you consider good and talented? Since rap is out, rock would definitely be out as well...what does that leave? Would you say that all modern music is garbage relative to classical? Not flaming, just curious.

Also, defining "music", IMO, is more or less a matter of semantics. Whatever you want to call it, the fact is that Eminem makes entertainment that people like. You're free to call it garbage, and you're free to dislike it, but recognize that that's a personal opinion. Myself and millions of others disagree. And yes, we do live in a culture of instant gratification, but so what? Why is that bad? People want quick, rigorous stimulation, and they want it quickly...that's just the times we live in.

Btw, I personally give Eminem the overall edge over Rakim, mostly because of consistency. No doubt that Rakim was dope. He was a pioneer and way ahead of his time - his first album was simply amazing. But Eminem has come out with album after album, and they've all been very good. Rakim and some of the other old school guys were dope as Hell at the beginning, but a lot of them didn't maintain that. We know how the other guys turned out, so we'll have to see what Eminem does in the rest of his career before making any conclusions.

 

cyber_x you're absolutely right. Making an Eminem/Bach comparison is just plain ridiculous. They come from completely different eras. Like I mentioned, I too enjoy pop music (Stevie Wonder, Michael Jackson, Marvin Gaye, Remy Shand etc.) but I'm just making the distinction that someone like Eminem cannot be considered that talented because all he is doing is "rhyming" over a beat. There's no notation (musical notes) involved in doing that except trying to stay on rhythm which he doesnt do all that well anyway. So my point is, he may be good entertainment and write some snazzy lyrics but he ain't no Stevie Wonder (amazing singer, songwriter AND musician). catch my drift?

I definitely do not want to start a war of words or battle of opinion here. Just speaking my mind. I honestly respect all of your opinions but just may not share the same one as all of you. I'm an intellectual at heart so I usually enjoy music that can stimulate my soul/heart as well as my my mind.

And I know this isnt a music forum or anything like that. I happen to love cars (including the S2000) but music is my other big passion.