Stupid Question About RPMs...
Originally Posted by rustywave,Sep 5 2007, 03:12 PM
edit: nevermind, didn't mean enclosed system. air in, air out. i meant like, drag works on the car, not on the engine...right?
when a gear is in a higher gear at a given rpm, it produces more load on an engine. i have proven this with my previous car.
it was a crx with turbo, boost was maintained at a steady level by the wastegate spring in my ext. wg. due to more load in higher gears, the boost level would peak higher than in the previous gear even though the only thing regulating the boost is the wg spring.
there is without a doubt more load on the motor in a higher gear because of the gear ratio. now, in the instance of my turbo car, it resulted in a leaner condition. the load led to the turbo making more pressure, and the leanness is due to more boost for a given a/f ratio. it may be that the extra load added to the leaner condition on its own (for example, leaner conditions for n/a), but i am not certain.
now, dynos read torque as engine output, but i remember reading once that the gear ratio multiplies the engine torque, and real torque at the wheels differs between gears. that's why the s2000 feels as if it accelerates harder in 1st gear vs 2nd gear, and i mention those gears since air resistance is not as great as in higher gears.
the question as to whether more gas is being burnt, i can't tell you. but i know for certain that engine load is a measurement that comes into play for stand alone computers, for example the AEM EMS gives you load outputs.
it was a crx with turbo, boost was maintained at a steady level by the wastegate spring in my ext. wg. due to more load in higher gears, the boost level would peak higher than in the previous gear even though the only thing regulating the boost is the wg spring.
there is without a doubt more load on the motor in a higher gear because of the gear ratio. now, in the instance of my turbo car, it resulted in a leaner condition. the load led to the turbo making more pressure, and the leanness is due to more boost for a given a/f ratio. it may be that the extra load added to the leaner condition on its own (for example, leaner conditions for n/a), but i am not certain.
now, dynos read torque as engine output, but i remember reading once that the gear ratio multiplies the engine torque, and real torque at the wheels differs between gears. that's why the s2000 feels as if it accelerates harder in 1st gear vs 2nd gear, and i mention those gears since air resistance is not as great as in higher gears.
the question as to whether more gas is being burnt, i can't tell you. but i know for certain that engine load is a measurement that comes into play for stand alone computers, for example the AEM EMS gives you load outputs.
Originally Posted by S2020,Sep 6 2007, 04:53 AM
baring friction? what? we live in an imaginary world?
My friend asked me if I can slam dunk from the free throw line. I told him I could, baring gravity.
My friend asked me if I can slam dunk from the free throw line. I told him I could, baring gravity.
Here's another tricky one for you guys that think that the tranny is outside the engine therefore not affected. Why does a car with 19" steel chromz accelerate slower than a car with forged lightweights?
And here's one for the 4krpm is 4krpm in any gear, when you're rolling down a hill with no accelerator input and the gravity allows your car to get up to 4krpm, is the engine working as hard?
So now that we've quashed that theorem lets use our melons to reverse that principle and realise that the amount of effort/work required is not independent of the external forces that are applied to the engine and car.
Another way of looking at it is the by-product of more work done, mileage. Add lots of weight and your car will use more fuel to do the same work right? Well being in 4th gear @4krpm means travelling faster than 4krpm in 1st therefore the effective weight of the car is greater.
If this last bit gets you read up about why ricer wings only work at XXXmph and then take those principles of downforce and chuck in a little coefficient of friction and you'll see the light.
If this last bit gets you read up about why ricer wings only work at XXXmph and then take those principles of downforce and chuck in a little coefficient of friction and you'll see the light.
Originally Posted by Elistan,Sep 5 2007, 11:48 PM
"working as hard" = "making as much power" in my opinion. Perhaps wantone meant it differently than that, dunno, I'm not a mind reader. I also threw in the assumption that we're talking about full throttle. Because if we're at 10% throttle in 1st gear, and 50% throttle in 6th gear, obviously the engine will be making more power (ie, working harder) with the larger throttle opening.
the problem with assuming "4000 rpm is 4000 rpms" is the fact that a gasoline engine has a throttle that controls the amount of air ingested, and the amount of fuel by association. More air needs more fuel. More air and fuel makes more power. Running at a constant 4000 rpms demands a different mount of throttle depending on the gear, the slope of the road, the wind direction, and the density of the air.
It's easy to test, however. In an S2000, cruising at 7000 rpms in first versus 7000 rpms in 6th will show an obvious difference in throttle position. By the same token, cruising at 4000 rpms in second going uphill and then going downhill will show that the throttle position is different depending on the load on the engine, even if the rpms are the same. More throttle equals more power. The load on the engine is obviously greater when more throttle is needed to maintain speed in the same gear.
It's easy to test, however. In an S2000, cruising at 7000 rpms in first versus 7000 rpms in 6th will show an obvious difference in throttle position. By the same token, cruising at 4000 rpms in second going uphill and then going downhill will show that the throttle position is different depending on the load on the engine, even if the rpms are the same. More throttle equals more power. The load on the engine is obviously greater when more throttle is needed to maintain speed in the same gear.
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