Ok great, then when someone goes to hell you could just say: are you really in hell? Did you really go through judgement day? Was that really Jesus? Prove it. If you are gonna make a lame argument about consciousness, it can go infinitely circular.

It's obvious we are awake....I have not ever felt pain in my dreams. I have been scared before from a nightmare, but cannot ever recall pain that wasn't real pain which woke me up. As far as instruments go to measure....sure, thats how science works. Calculations and instruments allow us to put physics into play.

It's funny JonBoy, you were raised as a Christian right? If not then at least we know at some point you became a Christian. You became one because you decided to believe in Jesus and what everyone has told you about it (including the Bible). Had you been born on Saudi Arabia, taught about the Koran and raised as a Muslim, you would likely have as devout a belief in Allah and Mohammed as you do in Jesus. Do you argue that?

You believe in your engineering practices because you went to school, did the math, did the labs and proved in front of your own eyes that at least within the context we humans understand, those things work in set, predictable, pre-defined manner given the construct of our environment (both earth and beyond). No one said....hey JonBoy you have to believe that Carbon dating works...we can't prove it but one day in the future you will see....or that Newtons Laws work but we can't show ....just believe it. Would you design a component based on that alone? If so I wouldn't buy any of your stuff.

So why do you believe so heavily in something for which the evidence is purely the faith you have of how true something is thats written in a book (by men, not God)? It just doesn't add up. Again, there is a god (or higher power) of some sort who made all this happen....but its just irresponsible for us as humans to think we understand it, to think that we know what its purpose for us is, to think we know what it wants etc. Its obvious its there (even if its just a force we dont understand...its something). It can be different for everyone. But one thing is for sure...and that is that no one is really sure despite their beliefs.

 

I would ask Jesus what happened to the dinosaurs.

 

You only prove my point - none of us can prove anything. That's all I was trying to get you to say. I can't prove what I think is true - you can't prove what you think is true.

It's "obvious" we are awake? You're going with obvious things now? Sorry, but "obvious" doesn't cut it. I can say "It's obvious there is a God". Is that good enough for you? Didn't think so.

Also, if you dream, and you're already in a dream, feeling or not feeling pain has nothing to do with it. Personally, I have felt pain in my dreams. I've also dreamt that I was dreaming! So how do I know when I'm actually awake? I don't - I just have faith that I'm awake.

I was raised in a Christian home but I didn't accept Jesus Christ as my Saviour until I was 17. I didn't "decide" to believe in Jesus - I was compelled. What happened to me was so unbelievable that I didn't have a choice - He compelled me to believe. Believe me - the last thing I wanted to be was a Christian. I'd seen too many hypocrites to want to be associated with them. I was planning on moving in with my (unChristian) father as soon as I graduated. Didn't happen, though, and now I am where I am today.

I do argue that if I was born Muslim, I'd still believe in Jesus today. It has to do with something called predestination, but that's a whole different topic. Muslims also happen to believe Jesus was a prophet - it's not such a stretch for a Muslim to believe in Him as a Saviour.

I believe in my engineering practices only as far as I need to. Why? Because they are not perfect. There are exceptions to every rule. My uncle has found a fluids phenomena that refutes the Bernoulli principle - that's something that a LOT of engineering practices are based on. Does that mean I throw out the Bernoulli principle? No. It does mean that I realize it's not an absolute, though.

If you think that everything operates according to set rules, you've missed just about every engineering mishap in the history of mankind. We always use "best practices", yet somehow we always get failures. While some are attributed to human error, others are purely unexplainable (or go against the principle applied in the first place). Believe me, the rules obviously don't always work.

Carbon dating doesn't work perfectly (or remotely perfectly in many cases). I could take some time to explain it but I won't. Bad example.

I have faith that the engineering principles I use will work in most cases. I do realize that we have limitations on those principles, however, and going into certain areas will reduce or remove the effectiveness of those principles.

You won't ever understand why a person would profess to believe in and have a relationship with God until you experience it yourself. That's the easiest (and correct) answer. I can't explain it to you - you wouldn't understand.

One thing I am sure of is my belief that God sent us His Word to show us what He wanted. Another thing I am sure of is that He sent His Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth. That's all I need - I trust that He will take care of the rest.

 

Herein is a big issue. We only understand so much right now. We have faith that we're right, but by the same token, let's look back 100 years. Many of the "scientific" principles of 100 years ago are baloney today. Why would we expect any different now? Advances in science are a dime a dozen. Why would you believe we've all of a sudden found an "absolute" in science?

That's why it's all faith. We've proved and unproved so many scientific things thus far, it's only reasonable to assume the same trend will continue.

Is that a better explanation?

 

It says that his wife is longsuffering.

 

I am his wife

 

I see your point...but I think the difference is that at least we can use control groups and test groups to test out any new or old scientific principles or theories. To do that with religion someone would have to die and be able to report their findings ...not likely, heh.

One day we'll all find out. For the record, when I was a kid going to church I tried and tried to be "saved" and accept J.C. into my life....but it just always felt one-sided and empty. As my education has grown, it has lead me farther and farther away....looking for facts, looking at facts. Partially it's the human factor...I got tired of people preaching, spewing their experiences, criticisms of others, ways etc. and it just turned me off. I have been to many churches and met some good, some bad. So I think church can play a good role in keeping people walk the right line....but too much do I see so many wrongs, so much ignorance, intolerance and closemindedness (if thats a word) with so many people, that I don't even want anything to do with it anymore. I believe in God, I see the wonders of nature, space, life and I know he's there. I just think all the people in the world who think they know him personally are full of it. Religion should be between a man and his prayers....not more. So this pre-destination thing....I guess some people are pre-destined and others aren't.

Recently, I have heard elder Christians walking around speaking to one another something like : "it's such a nice day, the lord is just working in such wonderful ways today." I didn't say anything, but I thought.....how stupid can you get. Sure, ok its a nice day outside right here in Dallas. Why don't you fly halfway around the world to Sudan where people are getting murdered by the thousands daily and no one is doing a damn thing about it. Why isn't the lord working in such wonderful ways there? Many of the slaughtered are Christians and I'M SURE they are praying for their lives....prayers going unheard/or unchecked at least. I've prayed and had prayers answered (well, probably just coincidence because what I asked for was tiny in comparison to someone praying for their life from soldiers coming to kill them for basically no reason). Ok, I'm exhausted. I'll read your reply to this post then I'm signing off. Cheers and good conversation.

 

Came across this article about the eminent atheist Antony Flew and thought of this thread. I don't think Antony will be attending any tent revivals, but the article might be of interest to a few who have posted here.

Excerpt from the article:

"A British philosophy professor who has been a leading champion of atheism for more than a half-century has changed his mind. He now believes in God more or less based on scientific evidence, and says so on a video released Thursday.

At age 81, after decades of insisting belief is a mistake, Antony Flew has concluded that some sort of intelligence or first cause must have created the universe. A super-intelligence is the only good explanation for the origin of life and the complexity of nature, Flew said in a telephone interview from England.

Flew said he's best labeled a deist like Thomas Jefferson, whose God was not actively involved in people's lives."

 

One question that I would love to have answered is that all TV Evangelists state that they are the true way to get to heaven (perhaps you need to send a few$'s to ensure that) and just about every church states they are the true way and that all others are false. My question is which one is "the way the truth and the light"

 

what would brian boitano do?