what would you ask jesus
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Originally Posted by AutoAviat,Dec 9 2004, 03:48 PM
I see your point...but I think the difference is that at least we can use control groups and test groups to test out any new or old scientific principles or theories. To do that with religion someone would have to die and be able to report their findings ...not likely, heh.
One day we'll all find out. For the record, when I was a kid going to church I tried and tried to be "saved" and accept J.C. into my life....but it just always felt one-sided and empty. As my education has grown, it has lead me farther and farther away....looking for facts, looking at facts. Partially it's the human factor...I got tired of people preaching, spewing their experiences, criticisms of others, ways etc. and it just turned me off. I have been to many churches and met some good, some bad. So I think church can play a good role in keeping people walk the right line....but too much do I see so many wrongs, so much ignorance, intolerance and closemindedness (if thats a word) with so many people, that I don't even want anything to do with it anymore. I believe in God, I see the wonders of nature, space, life and I know he's there. I just think all the people in the world who think they know him personally are full of it. Religion should be between a man and his prayers....not more. So this pre-destination thing....I guess some people are pre-destined and others aren't.
Recently, I have heard elder Christians walking around speaking to one another something like : "it's such a nice day, the lord is just working in such wonderful ways today." I didn't say anything, but I thought.....how stupid can you get. Sure, ok its a nice day outside right here in Dallas. Why don't you fly halfway around the world to Sudan where people are getting murdered by the thousands daily and no one is doing a damn thing about it. Why isn't the lord working in such wonderful ways there? Many of the slaughtered are Christians and I'M SURE they are praying for their lives....prayers going unheard/or unchecked at least. I've prayed and had prayers answered (well, probably just coincidence because what I asked for was tiny in comparison to someone praying for their life from soldiers coming to kill them for basically no reason). Ok, I'm exhausted. I'll read your reply to this post then I'm signing off. Cheers and good conversation.
One day we'll all find out. For the record, when I was a kid going to church I tried and tried to be "saved" and accept J.C. into my life....but it just always felt one-sided and empty. As my education has grown, it has lead me farther and farther away....looking for facts, looking at facts. Partially it's the human factor...I got tired of people preaching, spewing their experiences, criticisms of others, ways etc. and it just turned me off. I have been to many churches and met some good, some bad. So I think church can play a good role in keeping people walk the right line....but too much do I see so many wrongs, so much ignorance, intolerance and closemindedness (if thats a word) with so many people, that I don't even want anything to do with it anymore. I believe in God, I see the wonders of nature, space, life and I know he's there. I just think all the people in the world who think they know him personally are full of it. Religion should be between a man and his prayers....not more. So this pre-destination thing....I guess some people are pre-destined and others aren't.
Recently, I have heard elder Christians walking around speaking to one another something like : "it's such a nice day, the lord is just working in such wonderful ways today." I didn't say anything, but I thought.....how stupid can you get. Sure, ok its a nice day outside right here in Dallas. Why don't you fly halfway around the world to Sudan where people are getting murdered by the thousands daily and no one is doing a damn thing about it. Why isn't the lord working in such wonderful ways there? Many of the slaughtered are Christians and I'M SURE they are praying for their lives....prayers going unheard/or unchecked at least. I've prayed and had prayers answered (well, probably just coincidence because what I asked for was tiny in comparison to someone praying for their life from soldiers coming to kill them for basically no reason). Ok, I'm exhausted. I'll read your reply to this post then I'm signing off. Cheers and good conversation.
I can direct you to a couple of people that have died and been raised from the dead. You'd have to go to Tuscon, AZ but I can do it if you want.
I've sent you a PM on the rest of your response. Thanks for keeping it civil.
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Originally Posted by mns2k,Dec 9 2004, 05:06 PM
One question that I would love to have answered is that all TV Evangelists state that they are the true way to get to heaven (perhaps you need to send a few$'s to ensure that) and just about every church states they are the true way and that all others are false. My question is which one is "the way the truth and the light"
A man can't lead you into it. A man can preach the Truth, yes, but it will take a personal relationship with Christ to get you into Heaven.
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Originally Posted by JonBoy,Dec 10 2004, 10:06 AM
So is there such thing as "right" and "wrong"?
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[QUOTE=pulp350z,Dec 10 2004, 10:21 AM]Did you every take a philosophy or personal ethics course in college? Or maybe even a course on religion (beyond Christianity)? You are a pretty smart guy and I think if you open yourself up to other idealisms/ethical formulations you may find them interesting and thought provoking.
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Originally Posted by pulp350z,Dec 10 2004, 06:41 AM
Saying they are not Christian while they are gay is passing judgment on the person. You are making a declaration of what the person is or is not. If you would like to address this issue in terms of behavior, perhaps you should say performing gay acts is un-Christian like (in your opinion). If you insist your not passing judgment on the person than perhaps you should be more mindful of how you come across and the things you say.
You claim there are no absolutes, but at the same time you expect everyone to accept what you say as an absolute. I don't get it. This is why peole on this thread take issue with what you have to say.
Oh and by the way, most homosexuals/lesbians don't have an internal switch that determines who they are by nature. They are gay by nature and there is nothing they can do to change who they are. They too can only address their behavior. And personally, I think it is unfair to ask a gay to not participate in sex/making love because someone else may find the idea of what they do to be offensive. If you don't like the idea of it then don't think about. Because you know what? What you and your wife do with each other in private is just as disgusting to them.
And you have no right to judge their relationship with God or Christ. Live and let live dude because when it comes right down to you are no more or less qualified to determine the truth than any of the rest of us. Regardless of how comfortable you are with your faith and regardless being a Christian Engineer.
Oh and btw, I'm older than you so, according to your previously posted rational, that makes me wiser than you and right. Whatever...
You claim there are no absolutes, but at the same time you expect everyone to accept what you say as an absolute. I don't get it. This is why peole on this thread take issue with what you have to say.
Oh and by the way, most homosexuals/lesbians don't have an internal switch that determines who they are by nature. They are gay by nature and there is nothing they can do to change who they are. They too can only address their behavior. And personally, I think it is unfair to ask a gay to not participate in sex/making love because someone else may find the idea of what they do to be offensive. If you don't like the idea of it then don't think about. Because you know what? What you and your wife do with each other in private is just as disgusting to them.
And you have no right to judge their relationship with God or Christ. Live and let live dude because when it comes right down to you are no more or less qualified to determine the truth than any of the rest of us. Regardless of how comfortable you are with your faith and regardless being a Christian Engineer.
Oh and btw, I'm older than you so, according to your previously posted rational, that makes me wiser than you and right. Whatever...
The word "Christian" means "Christ like". Christ wasn't gay nor did he condone that lifestyle. Therefore, it is not Christian. Period. It's that simple. I don't need to get politically correct on this one nor do I need to change my wording. A gay person is not a Christian, by the very definition of the word. A gay person can become a Christian. A Christian can become a gay person (and lose their Christianity). But, a gay person is not a Christian UNLESS (and this is one caveat that applies to us all) they are in the process of being changed by God. We are all works in progress, but someone that is openly gay, is making no attempt to change their lifestyle, and doesn't really care that they're gay is NOT a Christian. Period.
I absolutely do claim there are absolutes. I just claim that none of us can prove them. I addressed this issue in my previous reply.
You can prove that homosexuals can't help who/what they are? You can prove it's definitely genetic? I can agree that some people have leanings towards acting in a more feminine manner (if they're male) or vice versa if they're female. However, I don't believe that being homosexual is genetic. I believe it is a spirit that's on a person (just like lust, or lying, or whatever). But that's another story...
I absolutely have a right to make a stand for what scripture says. I'm not going to go around blasting them, actively searching them out to tell them they're going to hell. But, I can say, if asked (or pressed), that scripture absolutely tells us that homosexuals will not go to heaven. It's an abomination to God. I can say that clearly and without a problem in my conscience.
Live and let live isn't an issue with me. People can do what they want. They just have no right to REQUIRE me to condone their actions or say "Oh, it's okay". They also have no right to require that I give my approval. I can disapprove all I want - it's the same right they have to insist on their right to do what they want. Why is it that we're all for giving rights to approve of things and we're so adamant about removing rights to disapprove of things? Aren't the two one and the same? With approval must come disapproval? If one has a right to approve, doesn't another have the same right to disapprove?
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From: DC
66% chance of winning? is that because you are estimating that 66% of the world populatin is christian? what about the period in earth history when the bible did not exist ( not even the old testiment )? does that mean 100% of the population back then had to go to hell? What about when less than 1% of the earth population believed in christianity? does that mean 99% of the rest of the population had to go to hell? what about all the nice jews running around today? do they all go to hell? what about all the nice budists running around the world today? do they also go to hell?
christianity seem to want to hold the monopoly on heaven - only through christ can u enter heaven. no other means.. thats an absolute.
oh yeah.. what about the trillians of space aliens out there that arnt christians? are they also going to hell?
doesnt take a philosophy degree to see that this whole christianity idea has basic flaws.
christianity seem to want to hold the monopoly on heaven - only through christ can u enter heaven. no other means.. thats an absolute.
oh yeah.. what about the trillians of space aliens out there that arnt christians? are they also going to hell?
doesnt take a philosophy degree to see that this whole christianity idea has basic flaws.
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From: DC
commandment #1
I AM THE LORD THY GOD, THOU SHALT NOT HAVE strange gods BEFORE ME.
I think the catholics are all going to hell.. they worship their pope (and saints ) like he was god himself...
ever see the vadican chistmas specials on tv live? my god... the way they worship and present the pope you would think he WAS god.
surrounded by opulence. siting on a great white throne.. i especially get a tickle out of the ceremony where the pope stands in front of this great white gate. raise his hands and the gates open. then he steps through and all is dark.. and he mumbles some latin no one understands and the chamber fills with light. then he goes and sits on another throne inside and children representing all countries come up to him bearing gifts.
whats the message? the pope/church holds the key to the gates of heaven. they can create light - something i thought only god can do? "in the beginning, there was darkness and god created light blah blah blah".
I also noticed the constant reference to the pope as "his holy father" - as chris rock would say "the pope is going to HELL!"
god they are REALLY good at marketing. religion is a very big business. tax free business i must add.
even hollywood could not dream up such a grand display.
i cant wait for this years xmas special from the vatican.. maybe they will have the pope part the red sea or something.
I AM THE LORD THY GOD, THOU SHALT NOT HAVE strange gods BEFORE ME.
I think the catholics are all going to hell.. they worship their pope (and saints ) like he was god himself...
ever see the vadican chistmas specials on tv live? my god... the way they worship and present the pope you would think he WAS god.
surrounded by opulence. siting on a great white throne.. i especially get a tickle out of the ceremony where the pope stands in front of this great white gate. raise his hands and the gates open. then he steps through and all is dark.. and he mumbles some latin no one understands and the chamber fills with light. then he goes and sits on another throne inside and children representing all countries come up to him bearing gifts.
whats the message? the pope/church holds the key to the gates of heaven. they can create light - something i thought only god can do? "in the beginning, there was darkness and god created light blah blah blah".
I also noticed the constant reference to the pope as "his holy father" - as chris rock would say "the pope is going to HELL!"
god they are REALLY good at marketing. religion is a very big business. tax free business i must add.
even hollywood could not dream up such a grand display.
i cant wait for this years xmas special from the vatican.. maybe they will have the pope part the red sea or something.