I posted this a bit ago in the other thread, but it probably mostly belongs in this thread. Sorry in advance if I'm using bandwidth unnecessarily.

I've just been listening loud enough (and fast enough--no ticket though) to make some conclusions. Also, I went back to my audio store and listened back and forth between xr60p (the SEPARATE component version of xr600) and Alpine 6 x 9 speakers and with the Alpines as front and the xr60p as rear. I used the same head the store sold me. I assume they stuck decent wire in. The xr60p speakers were not "bi-amp" installed.

Also, I talked with customer tech support at Kenwood. Miguel, the Kenwood rep, seemed pretty knowledgable. He said the xr600 speakers are 4 ohm as a parallel powered pair or as separates. He said there's a coil and a capacitor in the wiring that effects this.

Miguel of Kenwood also said that the speaker wiring was not a limiting factor unless I went to power the speakers with a separate amp. He did recommend installing an amp, like Pinky said, like Goldtrom plans to do, to get the best, because 27 watts rms is underpowering these speakers. He pointed out that the speaker lead wires in Kenwood heads are 20 gauge. Does this sound possible?

He said I could get a benefit from powering the tweeters from the front speaker outputs and the woofer from rear speaker outputs IF the head has a cross-over built in to send high frequency forward and low frequency rearward.

Finally, Miguel suggested that my next step might be to add a powered subwoofer or a subwoofer and amplifier and let the sub handle the frequencies below 160 hz that are giving my head and speakers a problem. He strongly recommended mounting the sub somewhere in the cabin rather than in the trunk.


I tried to look at a pair of new xr600 speakers but the store was out. I was going to measure ohms too, but, again no test speakers.

Most important for me, I listened and listened and listened and played with head controls and listened some more. At moderate volumes--around town driving, I get very satisfying sound including bass with the head controls pretty flat or even with some bass boost. That's for a numeric volume setting of 15-20 out of 35 arbitrary units. At 80 mph, top down, windows down I get very satisfying sound at a volume setting of 25-30, but I have to dial out some of the bass to get rid of distortion. On the Alpine head I can do this three ways (1) bass tone control (which is variable in center frequency and curve shape); (2) high pass filter (which is variable in three steps in cut frequency 80, 120, 160; or by (3) switching out BBE which cuts bass even though that is not how the BBE web page describes what is going on. If I crank the sound up to 35 out of 35 arbitrary units, I can hear the highs clearly by cutting the bass more. That is much louder than I need for comfortable listening, even 80 mph, top down, windows down.


I'm going to listen more, post less, spend even less and make a decision after I've really gotten to know my current setup better.

 

Barry:

Don't worry too much about bandwidth, it keep getting cheaper .
(Cthree, don't kill me cause I said that)




...

Now I wish I had my speaker in front of me. I assumed they were there as a high pass filter, I didn't even bother to look as to how they were arranged to verify my assumption.

That being said, I still don't buy into the same impedence wired any which way... I know they are talking about nominal, and I haven't done the math, but at DC this is surly not possible. I cannot think of any configuration of a capacitor (which is an open circuit at DC) and an inductor (your coil, is a short) could change the "resitance" (since we are at dc) of two speakers in parallel.

So, I guess the real question is it possible to have this mystery effect using an inductor and a capacitor at ANY frequency? I may do a spice simulation of this to find out .

Anyways, assuming they are correct and being kenwood said it, that is a good assumption. Then wiring the two channels to one speaker cannot hurt, but may help. Now your tweater, which was using a fraction of the power, is not sucking away from the woofer. Unfortunatly, this is not going to give you more then a 1 db gain (double your power in watts = 3db gain).

My fader techniques is not as useful to people such as yourself, who have high pass filters built into their headunit. At most bi-amplification will gain you < 1db in volume and not much else.

Of course, the 1db gain I'm talking about is based upon a possibly incorect assumption about the power handling of the tweater.

I guess the woofer is absorbing all the low freq power which would have gone to the tweater. Since, I assumed the cap and the inductor were a high pass this seemed a mute point, but now I'm wondering if I'm not overdriving my tweater (poor little sucker must be hot enough to cook an egg).

Well, thanks for your post Barry. It has given me a lot to think about. I'm *almost* ready to tear my door apart to take a look at the wiring again...


Oh and Pinky, the Chewbacca thing was meant more to be funny then a direct attack on you, honestly .


-- Robert

 

Kenwood is right the tech is right and well.........(Pinky's head swells) im right too. Damn I hate when im right. Ok seriously the only way I can explain it is that its like a line on a piece of paper. You draw it from 20hz to 20,000 hz. Break the line at 2,500 hz below that is what your woofer reproduces above that your tweeter produces. the woofer naturally rolls off at 2,500hz and your tweeter is blocked from producing below 2,500 hz. In this way your amplifier "sees" one line showing 4 ohms......with some slight cross over around 2,500 hz making about 2 ohms(parallel wiring)......but only for a small area around 2,5000 hz!

As for the DB gains......it will be minimal. Double power=+3 db gain double speakers another 3db. In real practice its a sales trickery! Better speakers with the same power can produce much more than 3 db each. Better amps(cleaner power) can produce more than a 3db gain. So I try to stay away from those quotations.(real experience here in swapping subs or adding subs is the most noticable)

 

Robert, I'm getting ready to do this tomorrow. I have 18 gauge wire that came with the Kenwoods. My stereo store has 16 gauge wire and has on order "Monster" brand 16 gauge.

Did you use "Monster" brand, or just "monsterously big" 16 gauge.

I doubt that 16 gauge could make any difference from a head to the speakers. I don't believe 18 gauge would have any problem carrying 27 watts rms for about five feet. Kenwood told me that the wire coming out of their own high power head is 18 gauge.

I think that 16 gauge might still be better, just so you have it there if you later add an amp, like you did.

BTW, I've consulted with Alpine tech support, Kenwood tech support, and each of the three "stereo gods" at my local stereo store. All think that this will probably help me clean up the lows and use the head's amplifier section better to get either more volume (not needed) or same volume with less distortion (needed)!

Thanks for exploring this. I'll report on my results tomorrow or Friday.

 

Hi Barry,

I used "Monster" brand cable... I'm not exactly sure how one company can claim better copper then another... but they do at monster cable. It is very thick and has a very rubbery (and thick) shielding. So, if anything, the shielding should help.

With your active high and low filters (crossovers) it should sound very clean.


Good luck, hope all works out well !

-- Robert

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Goldtrom
[B]Hi Barry,

I used "Monster" brand cable... I'm not exactly sure how one company can claim better copper then another... but they do at monster cable. It is very thick and has a very rubbery (and thick) shielding. So, if anything, the shielding should help.

With your active high and low filters (crossovers) it should sound very clean.

 

You talk out of your ass all day long, Utah. I wonder why you're so arrogant? May I suggest that you take your foot out of your mouth and quit bullying new members?

{ 3 alarm flame omitted - c3 }

 

Sunchild,

Your New York accent is showing. Please refrain from personal attacks people and let's keep it civil or I'll have to shut it down.

Thanks.

 

Sorry. He's out of line, though.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sunchild
[B]

Sorry.