Ribbon Tweeters in A-Pillar??? Need Help
02-09-2002, 03:50 PM
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Ribbon Tweeters in A-Pillar??? Need Help
Got my '01 S2K last week. The stereo is in dire need of improvement. I am considering installing some Bohlender-Graebener Planar Magnetic Ribbon tweeters into the A-Pillars. Can anyone tell me what is behind the A-pillar? How much depth? Looks like roughly 1.5" depth with about 2-2.5" of width at full depth. Do I need to be concerned about disrupting the seal between the cnvt. top, door and the A-pillar if I pull of the A-pillar to install the tweeter? I have included the link to the ribbons for anyone interested. I am looking at the NEO3PDR and the NEO8 (if it will fit - may be too wide).
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&D...Page_ID=135#neo
I am also hoping for some more info on the door situation. I would like to put in some 6.5 or 7 inch woofers. I assume people are setting these up with the door skin grill still in place. This is a MAJOR compromise but will maintain the stock look on the doors. Anyone have any pics of good install options for larger woofers in doors? I have narrowed my options down to one of a few; Peerless CSX 6.5", Vifa M18WN-19, Audax HT-170ZO. Focal and Morel are also options but I haven't narrowed down specific units yet. How much depth do I have and what is the size of the hole in the door?
Thanks! Just trying to get all of my figures straight before ordering up parts. I am trying to avoid taking apart the door any more times than necessary.
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&D...Page_ID=135#neo
I am also hoping for some more info on the door situation. I would like to put in some 6.5 or 7 inch woofers. I assume people are setting these up with the door skin grill still in place. This is a MAJOR compromise but will maintain the stock look on the doors. Anyone have any pics of good install options for larger woofers in doors? I have narrowed my options down to one of a few; Peerless CSX 6.5", Vifa M18WN-19, Audax HT-170ZO. Focal and Morel are also options but I haven't narrowed down specific units yet. How much depth do I have and what is the size of the hole in the door?
Thanks! Just trying to get all of my figures straight before ordering up parts. I am trying to avoid taking apart the door any more times than necessary.
02-09-2002, 04:36 PM
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Any particular reason why you want to use a ribbon? This one is going to be quite loud also SPL = 93.5.
IMO, ribbons are usually kind of harsh to have so close to your ear, but to each his own. I think that you will have better success mounting them in the doors.
But since you are considering going with :
Why not a nice Peerless or Vifa dome tweeter in the door? Will be much easier on your ear.
I plan to stick a pair of Peerless tweeters in my '02 once I figure out how to put them into those tweeter housing (may have to lose the housing).
Just my 2 cents.
IMO, ribbons are usually kind of harsh to have so close to your ear, but to each his own. I think that you will have better success mounting them in the doors.
But since you are considering going with :
Peerless CSX 6.5", Vifa M18WN-19
I plan to stick a pair of Peerless tweeters in my '02 once I figure out how to put them into those tweeter housing (may have to lose the housing).
Just my 2 cents.
02-09-2002, 06:11 PM
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Matrix,
I believe the ribbons will offer far better imaging than a dome tweeter. The S2000 is a truly poor environment for a good stereo since there is so little space. Excellent off axis response, which the ribbons clearly offer, will be very benneficial. Also, if I can fit in the 8" ribbons, they will represent a major improvement to midrange clarity versus a door mounted woofer, since they extend down to about 300 hz. Don't forget, sound is directional down to about 150hz or so. With a more typical setup, you will need to cross a conventional tweeter over at around 3Khz, for arguments sake, we can assume the use of a stellar tweeter that can be crossed at 2Khz (ie. Scan-Speak or Dynaudio, or others at that level). In this scenario, you will have a LOT of your mids coming from the doors. With the ribbons, this is largely avoidable. Whether they will fit is a different story. I agree that the tweeters will need proper level matching with the woofer. It will not be possible to find a woofer that can match the output of the tweeter. I need to look into it further, but I believe there should also be a way to filter out the high end peakyness of the ribbon, perhaps with a notch filter in the crossover up at 15K or so. I'm not sure I have seen a notch filter used on a tweeter in this way. Normally you would use the filter on a Kevlar, Magnesium or Aluminum woofer in order to reduce the breakup mode in the midrange. I am going to call up BG on Monday in order to find out some more info on this particulr subject. In so far as your statement about the harshness of ribbons, I am not so sure I agree. Detailed, yes, no doubt. Harsh, well that depends on the specific ribbon - BG ribbons in a home environment are QUITE stellar - check out the Radia 75 sometime. I may purchase a few of these tweeters in order to see how they will be with nearfield placement. I still think this COULD be a very slick solution, and they are not all THAT expensive either.
If this doesnt pan out, I have a long list of desirable conventional tweeters that I am considering. For the moment, the Vifa XT25TG-35 is on the top of my list. It is the new dual concentric dome from Vifa. Has a VERY low Fs (500hz). The cost is about 60 bucks each. Morel is a consideration as well.
I believe the ribbons will offer far better imaging than a dome tweeter. The S2000 is a truly poor environment for a good stereo since there is so little space. Excellent off axis response, which the ribbons clearly offer, will be very benneficial. Also, if I can fit in the 8" ribbons, they will represent a major improvement to midrange clarity versus a door mounted woofer, since they extend down to about 300 hz. Don't forget, sound is directional down to about 150hz or so. With a more typical setup, you will need to cross a conventional tweeter over at around 3Khz, for arguments sake, we can assume the use of a stellar tweeter that can be crossed at 2Khz (ie. Scan-Speak or Dynaudio, or others at that level). In this scenario, you will have a LOT of your mids coming from the doors. With the ribbons, this is largely avoidable. Whether they will fit is a different story. I agree that the tweeters will need proper level matching with the woofer. It will not be possible to find a woofer that can match the output of the tweeter. I need to look into it further, but I believe there should also be a way to filter out the high end peakyness of the ribbon, perhaps with a notch filter in the crossover up at 15K or so. I'm not sure I have seen a notch filter used on a tweeter in this way. Normally you would use the filter on a Kevlar, Magnesium or Aluminum woofer in order to reduce the breakup mode in the midrange. I am going to call up BG on Monday in order to find out some more info on this particulr subject. In so far as your statement about the harshness of ribbons, I am not so sure I agree. Detailed, yes, no doubt. Harsh, well that depends on the specific ribbon - BG ribbons in a home environment are QUITE stellar - check out the Radia 75 sometime. I may purchase a few of these tweeters in order to see how they will be with nearfield placement. I still think this COULD be a very slick solution, and they are not all THAT expensive either.
If this doesnt pan out, I have a long list of desirable conventional tweeters that I am considering. For the moment, the Vifa XT25TG-35 is on the top of my list. It is the new dual concentric dome from Vifa. Has a VERY low Fs (500hz). The cost is about 60 bucks each. Morel is a consideration as well.
02-09-2002, 08:04 PM
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98Honda,
Not that I don't agree with everything you say, but I just don't get this imaging thing in cars. You are sitting on one side of the car.
It will be interesting to see if the Neo8 will fit as that will be your only choice to get the mids up above. Would they not be severely off axis also? I am thinking the part of the a pillar facing you would be thinner than the part at 90 deg. to you, so that would give you the same "angle of attack" as the door mounted tweeter, just higher up. Of course you could build a 45 deg. adaptor for the pillar...that could be interesting, but may block too much of the windshield. I still think you can do this with a door mounted tweeter such as the Vifa you state.
You may be able to compensate for not being able to match the woofer to this tweeter by just driving the woofer harder than the tweeter if you bi-amp.
What I planned on doing is angling the tweeter in the door slightly up and towards the driver. Not sure how I am going to do this yet, as I still am waiting for the car. That should help the off axis problem but I am not very concerned about it because I am not planning on doing a lot of critical listening in the car (other than to the engine) but I do want some highs. Bi-amping may help here also.
Please post what you find, as if it does work out, it would be a good fix.
Just my 2 cents.
Not that I don't agree with everything you say, but I just don't get this imaging thing in cars. You are sitting on one side of the car.
It will be interesting to see if the Neo8 will fit as that will be your only choice to get the mids up above. Would they not be severely off axis also? I am thinking the part of the a pillar facing you would be thinner than the part at 90 deg. to you, so that would give you the same "angle of attack" as the door mounted tweeter, just higher up. Of course you could build a 45 deg. adaptor for the pillar...that could be interesting, but may block too much of the windshield. I still think you can do this with a door mounted tweeter such as the Vifa you state.
You may be able to compensate for not being able to match the woofer to this tweeter by just driving the woofer harder than the tweeter if you bi-amp.
What I planned on doing is angling the tweeter in the door slightly up and towards the driver. Not sure how I am going to do this yet, as I still am waiting for the car. That should help the off axis problem but I am not very concerned about it because I am not planning on doing a lot of critical listening in the car (other than to the engine
) but I do want some highs. Bi-amping may help here also.Please post what you find, as if it does work out, it would be a good fix.
Just my 2 cents.
02-09-2002, 08:30 PM
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I am going to try to find out some more information on mounting ribbons in cars on the rec.audio.car newsgroup. I will report back. I know already that they can be very successfully implemented, but I am not so sure about in a car as small as the S2K. This would be a somewhat ambitious effort for me, I think. There are several variables that require consideration. Power handling and distortion is one...I am not sure how robust these drivers are. Second is the radiation pattern. These ribbons are really dipoles. The back of the A-Pillar will need to be WELL damped I believe in order to absorb the backwave and essentially make them into monopoles. Similarly, they are not a single point source. There could be some weird reflections inside the car. No way to know without trying, or learning from those who have experience with these components.
As far as mounting...I was gonna shoot for mounting them on wide "front" side of A-pillar. Not on the narrow edge. They would be more or less aimed at the passengers. I am not sure I really understand your 45 degree concept for mounting. There MAY be enough space to mount them. I need to get some additional measurements from BG which are not in the whitepaper on their website. Then I need to pull the A-pillar cover and have a look.
I tend to agree with your point that some sort of a delay would be helpful to improve imaging. Driver's seat is way to close to the left channel no matter how you slice it. Still, I am drawn to this concept of elevating the mid-bass from the lower, obstructed portion of the door. Perhaps a dome mid is another option. I will see if I can find a 2-2.5" dome mid with a neodym magnet. Maybe there is one that doesnt require much depth and can be mounted in either the upper door or the A-pillar (obviously will need to chop up the flange for this). Then, unfortunately, you need to deal with another crossover point which is less than ideal. OTOH, you could move to a 3/4" tweeter which will offer better off axis response very high up (plus I happen to have a couple of old Dynaudio D21 3/4" tweeters laying around.....hmmmm...another possiblity).
As far as mounting...I was gonna shoot for mounting them on wide "front" side of A-pillar. Not on the narrow edge. They would be more or less aimed at the passengers. I am not sure I really understand your 45 degree concept for mounting. There MAY be enough space to mount them. I need to get some additional measurements from BG which are not in the whitepaper on their website. Then I need to pull the A-pillar cover and have a look.
I tend to agree with your point that some sort of a delay would be helpful to improve imaging. Driver's seat is way to close to the left channel no matter how you slice it. Still, I am drawn to this concept of elevating the mid-bass from the lower, obstructed portion of the door. Perhaps a dome mid is another option. I will see if I can find a 2-2.5" dome mid with a neodym magnet. Maybe there is one that doesnt require much depth and can be mounted in either the upper door or the A-pillar (obviously will need to chop up the flange for this). Then, unfortunately, you need to deal with another crossover point which is less than ideal. OTOH, you could move to a 3/4" tweeter which will offer better off axis response very high up (plus I happen to have a couple of old Dynaudio D21 3/4" tweeters laying around.....hmmmm...another possiblity).
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02-13-2002, 06:53 PM
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The A-pillars come off real easily. Just put your fingers under the weatherstripping and pull near the top. They're held in by 2 clips. There isn't much room behind them. But, you can remove the defroster vent tube for some space.
02-18-2002, 07:02 PM
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Got the NEO8 and the NEO3PDR today. I rigged up some simple 6db x-overs @ 1K and 2K for testing them. I was also running free air a Seas 6.5" woofer that I have laying around so that I could get a sense of full range sound...
These components are HIGHLY detailed. I was using a Mapleshade Studios recording of Clifford Jordan which is one of my reference CDs for testing. Compared to a standard silk dome Seas tweeter they offer a MUCH more airy, detailed sound.
The NEO8 is an intriguing component. The issue with it is that vertical dispersion is very limited beyond the height of the driver. This will be a major issue if not mounting on the A-pillar. My sense is that it will be too wide for that application. Bummer.
The NEO3 on the other hand, has much less of a dispersion issue and has a bit smoother response, albeit not as low as the 8.
These were being tested as dipoles, BTW, with very shoddy crossovers. I am going to set these up with some better crossovers and some velcro in the car next weekend to see what the real world potential is.
So far, they meet or exceed my expectations.
These may end up in a project for my home stereo sometime soon...they sound that good. And, by the way, I am running all scan-speak at home, just as a reference point for the speakers that I am used to.
These components are HIGHLY detailed. I was using a Mapleshade Studios recording of Clifford Jordan which is one of my reference CDs for testing. Compared to a standard silk dome Seas tweeter they offer a MUCH more airy, detailed sound.
The NEO8 is an intriguing component. The issue with it is that vertical dispersion is very limited beyond the height of the driver. This will be a major issue if not mounting on the A-pillar. My sense is that it will be too wide for that application. Bummer.
The NEO3 on the other hand, has much less of a dispersion issue and has a bit smoother response, albeit not as low as the 8.
These were being tested as dipoles, BTW, with very shoddy crossovers. I am going to set these up with some better crossovers and some velcro in the car next weekend to see what the real world potential is.
So far, they meet or exceed my expectations.
These may end up in a project for my home stereo sometime soon...they sound that good. And, by the way, I am running all scan-speak at home, just as a reference point for the speakers that I am used to.
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