Billy running NASCAR
08-11-2010, 04:32 AM
#31
Registered User
Thank you to everyone asking to see if I was ok. I'm glad to report that I walked away with no injuries or bruises. The weekend was going really well for the 6 team and it was unfortunate to have been collected in 'the big one'. We had a great car that was capable of a good result. Hopefully we will have better luck next time.
The Nationwide car:
~3,500lbs
~650hp
Carburetor
5.87L pushrod V8
9,000rpm
4-speed H-pattern Dog ring race gearbox
Upper & Lower A-Arm front suspension
Panhard/Adjustable track bar solid rear axle
Grand Am CTSCC Mustang
~3,400lbs
~450hp
Fuel Injection
4.8L (with an increased bore to 5.0L) aluminum modular DOHC V8
7,000rpm
Stock 6spd Transmission (with Synchros)
Stock strut-type front suspension
Panhard Rod solid rear axle
The NW motor is a all-out race motor while the Mustang uses the stock "Cammer" motor out of a Mustang GT with a Spec restrictor (per Grand Am), intake manifold, and pistons bored out to 5.0L (from the stock 4.8L) by Roush Yates Engines.
Both cars have a big V8 up front and a solid rear axle (Panhard Rod for Mustang, and an adjustable Track Bar for NW). The NW car is an all-out tube frame race car that has many adjustments in terms of suspension geometry and settings. It's quite impressive what they can change on this car to improve the handling. There is a lot of technology in the chassis in body of these cars. They make over 1,000lbs of downforce and have tons of engineers drawing up everything from the chassis, suspension geometry, spindles, rear ends, etc... in CAD to improve the cars. Then everything is verified and further tested on the 7-post and 4-post rigs. It's unbelievable the technology that goes into these cars and it's far from what most perceive them to be. While many view all the cars as the same, the chassis and geometry of the suspension do vary a lot from team to team. The bodywork also varies from manufacturer to manufacturer with some brands having better aero than others. You have to see them in person to tell the difference but it is a substantial difference that is not noticeable on TV.
The Mustang is much more restricted. The series is very much showroom stock racing and you aren't able to change much outside of the production car. So it basically is a Mustang off the showroom floor with a cage in it. But Grand Am adjusts the weight of the car, modifications like headers, and the restrictor plate to make a more competitive playing field amongst the S4, Camaro, M3, STI, 911, Cayman S, etc...
The Mustang drives alot like the stock car, shifting with the clutch, using ABS, etc... The NW car on the other hand has quite a bit more power, a proper racing gearbox (that is a lot of fun), no ABS, no power-assisted brakes, proper brake and master cylinder sizing with adjustable brake bias - a real race car. The biggest challenge and difference was the tires. The 18" Continental racing slick is fairly predictable and consistent with a lot of grip once you start sliding the tire. The 15" GoodYear has more grip, but is a little more finicky and has a much more abrupt 'snap' loss of traction once you pass the limit of adhesion. Managing the tires with this characteristic and the very large sidewall was probably the biggest difference between the two. Which could explain why the top drivers who race the NW cars every weekend tend to do well on the road courses too -because they are very familiar with the characteristics of and managing the tire.
I appreciate all the comments and continued support.
Billy
The Nationwide car:
~3,500lbs
~650hp
Carburetor
5.87L pushrod V8
9,000rpm
4-speed H-pattern Dog ring race gearbox
Upper & Lower A-Arm front suspension
Panhard/Adjustable track bar solid rear axle
Grand Am CTSCC Mustang
~3,400lbs
~450hp
Fuel Injection
4.8L (with an increased bore to 5.0L) aluminum modular DOHC V8
7,000rpm
Stock 6spd Transmission (with Synchros)
Stock strut-type front suspension
Panhard Rod solid rear axle
The NW motor is a all-out race motor while the Mustang uses the stock "Cammer" motor out of a Mustang GT with a Spec restrictor (per Grand Am), intake manifold, and pistons bored out to 5.0L (from the stock 4.8L) by Roush Yates Engines.
Both cars have a big V8 up front and a solid rear axle (Panhard Rod for Mustang, and an adjustable Track Bar for NW). The NW car is an all-out tube frame race car that has many adjustments in terms of suspension geometry and settings. It's quite impressive what they can change on this car to improve the handling. There is a lot of technology in the chassis in body of these cars. They make over 1,000lbs of downforce and have tons of engineers drawing up everything from the chassis, suspension geometry, spindles, rear ends, etc... in CAD to improve the cars. Then everything is verified and further tested on the 7-post and 4-post rigs. It's unbelievable the technology that goes into these cars and it's far from what most perceive them to be. While many view all the cars as the same, the chassis and geometry of the suspension do vary a lot from team to team. The bodywork also varies from manufacturer to manufacturer with some brands having better aero than others. You have to see them in person to tell the difference but it is a substantial difference that is not noticeable on TV.
The Mustang is much more restricted. The series is very much showroom stock racing and you aren't able to change much outside of the production car. So it basically is a Mustang off the showroom floor with a cage in it. But Grand Am adjusts the weight of the car, modifications like headers, and the restrictor plate to make a more competitive playing field amongst the S4, Camaro, M3, STI, 911, Cayman S, etc...
The Mustang drives alot like the stock car, shifting with the clutch, using ABS, etc... The NW car on the other hand has quite a bit more power, a proper racing gearbox (that is a lot of fun), no ABS, no power-assisted brakes, proper brake and master cylinder sizing with adjustable brake bias - a real race car. The biggest challenge and difference was the tires. The 18" Continental racing slick is fairly predictable and consistent with a lot of grip once you start sliding the tire. The 15" GoodYear has more grip, but is a little more finicky and has a much more abrupt 'snap' loss of traction once you pass the limit of adhesion. Managing the tires with this characteristic and the very large sidewall was probably the biggest difference between the two. Which could explain why the top drivers who race the NW cars every weekend tend to do well on the road courses too -because they are very familiar with the characteristics of and managing the tire.
I appreciate all the comments and continued support.
Billy
08-11-2010, 12:26 PM
#33
Thanks for the download Billy. Sure the use 7-post rigs to setup those "cup" cars but it's very, very helpful to hear what it's like to drive one.
It sounds silly, but I think CTSCC is my favorite racing series to watch because the cars are so close to stock and the tires have roughly the same stick as a BFG R1 or a Hoosier R6.
It sounds silly, but I think CTSCC is my favorite racing series to watch because the cars are so close to stock and the tires have roughly the same stick as a BFG R1 or a Hoosier R6.
08-15-2010, 06:47 AM
#34
Registered User
Here's a response to the question about the effectiveness of stick-axles (as well as more pictures from the weekend:
Panhard bars and stick-axles are quite effective. While you can look at cars like NASCAR, Grand Am GT (some Corvettes), Australian V8 Supercars, and other forms of motorsport where they have adjustable panhard bars (Track bars) that change the suspension geometry and roll centers on the fly, and can swap out axles for ones that have built-in camber in the rear, and so on. Look at the Grand Am Continental Tire Sports Car challenge for a showroom stock comparison.
In the CTSCC all cars basically are production street cars with roll cages in them. Suspension pickup points are not allowed to be changed, so you have the stock control arms, suspension geometry, and are only allowed spec Koni double adjustable coilovers and roughly the same size Conti tires for all cars (245-275 -that have roughly the same grip as a Hoosier R6 or BFG R1, probably less). From there, weight is added or removed, headers are allowed or not, restrictor plates are added to make the playing field more even, but you have a close to stock stick-axle Mustang racing Independent suspension of BMW M3s, Camaros, Porsche 911 and Caymans, Subaru STIs, Audi S4s, and so more.
Our race this past weekend was a temporary street circuit in Trois Rivieres, Quebec. In our stick-axle Mustang we finished 2nd to a E92 M3 who was not restricted by the mandatory 30 minute per driver rule to get driver points since they are not in it for the championship. The road course before at New Jersey Motorsports Park, we won the race. Even in basically stock form, you can make stick axles work very well.
On a professional stage like NASCAR, Aussie V8 supercars, Grand Am, etc... You can put static camber in the car and have some very neat technology that goes along with it. It's been said that the recent 'purist' viewpoint/train of thought has shifted the generally accepted consensus that IRS (Independent Rear Suspension) is superior to stick-axles when it is not necessarily true. While the camber gain and bumpsteer of IRS can edge out a stick-axle in peak mid-corner grip, it can become a disadvantage on entry and especially exit of corners. "The fastest accelerating cars in the world have stick-axles". By maintaining an even rear platform, stick-axles have inherent advantages that at the end of the day, can be as good if not better than an IRS. In many cases its harder to make an IRS work better than a stick-axle, pending rules of the series, which stick-axle design you are looking at, etc... But at the end of the day, in CTSCC, a ~stock geometry Mustang out handles and comes out of corners better than the E92 M3 but currently due to rules, the M3 outbrakes and has more power to out accelerate the Mustang on the top end.
Here are some taken by Motorsport.com and my friend Jeff:
Panhard bars and stick-axles are quite effective. While you can look at cars like NASCAR, Grand Am GT (some Corvettes), Australian V8 Supercars, and other forms of motorsport where they have adjustable panhard bars (Track bars) that change the suspension geometry and roll centers on the fly, and can swap out axles for ones that have built-in camber in the rear, and so on. Look at the Grand Am Continental Tire Sports Car challenge for a showroom stock comparison.
In the CTSCC all cars basically are production street cars with roll cages in them. Suspension pickup points are not allowed to be changed, so you have the stock control arms, suspension geometry, and are only allowed spec Koni double adjustable coilovers and roughly the same size Conti tires for all cars (245-275 -that have roughly the same grip as a Hoosier R6 or BFG R1, probably less). From there, weight is added or removed, headers are allowed or not, restrictor plates are added to make the playing field more even, but you have a close to stock stick-axle Mustang racing Independent suspension of BMW M3s, Camaros, Porsche 911 and Caymans, Subaru STIs, Audi S4s, and so more.
Our race this past weekend was a temporary street circuit in Trois Rivieres, Quebec. In our stick-axle Mustang we finished 2nd to a E92 M3 who was not restricted by the mandatory 30 minute per driver rule to get driver points since they are not in it for the championship. The road course before at New Jersey Motorsports Park, we won the race. Even in basically stock form, you can make stick axles work very well.
On a professional stage like NASCAR, Aussie V8 supercars, Grand Am, etc... You can put static camber in the car and have some very neat technology that goes along with it. It's been said that the recent 'purist' viewpoint/train of thought has shifted the generally accepted consensus that IRS (Independent Rear Suspension) is superior to stick-axles when it is not necessarily true. While the camber gain and bumpsteer of IRS can edge out a stick-axle in peak mid-corner grip, it can become a disadvantage on entry and especially exit of corners. "The fastest accelerating cars in the world have stick-axles". By maintaining an even rear platform, stick-axles have inherent advantages that at the end of the day, can be as good if not better than an IRS. In many cases its harder to make an IRS work better than a stick-axle, pending rules of the series, which stick-axle design you are looking at, etc... But at the end of the day, in CTSCC, a ~stock geometry Mustang out handles and comes out of corners better than the E92 M3 but currently due to rules, the M3 outbrakes and has more power to out accelerate the Mustang on the top end.
Here are some taken by Motorsport.com and my friend Jeff:
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